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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old August 21 2013, 04:00 AM   #136
Kinokima
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
But it's not really comparable. TNG was first-run syndication, where the competition was considerably less than it would be in a network prime-time slot. TNG, like TOS, never cracked the top 30 in ratings, and it is highly doubtful it would have lasted as long as it did on one of the big four broadcast networks.
And not to mention TOS was a huge success when it reruns went into syndication too. I am pretty sure the series would not have been cancelled if they knew what was going to happen later.

They didn't continue the franchise in movies out of the goodness of their hearts.
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Old August 21 2013, 04:53 AM   #137
CoveTom
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
ichab wrote: View Post
TOS was on the air for three years. TNG was on for seven years. TNG was more successful during it's run. That is fact.
But it's not really comparable. TNG was first-run syndication, where the competition was considerably less than it would be in a network prime-time slot. TNG, like TOS, never cracked the top 30 in ratings, and it is highly doubtful it would have lasted as long as it did on one of the big four broadcast networks.
That's not entirely accurate, though. During TNG's real heydey, around the time of the 5th and 6th seasons, it was pulling in ratings that went head-to-head with its network competition. In particular, I remember Paramount being very proud of the fact that TNG was beating the ratings for Monday Night Football.

It may not be a direct apples-to-apples comparison, since TNG was syndicated, but people forget just how phenomenally popular TNG was. It definitely pulled ratings comparable to successful network shows, and I think it could have succeeded on a network.
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Old August 21 2013, 07:16 AM   #138
TorontoTrekker
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

ichab wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
From the first airing of The Man Trap in September of 1966, through the last movie appearance of Kirk and two others of the main TOS cast in Generations in November of 1994, it was 28 years.
The movies and the television series are two separate things. You're also counting a whole lot of years of inactivity.For instance the series ended in 1969 and the first movie didn't hit the screen until ten years later.You don't get to count all those empty years.
Some of us didn't discover TOS until that fallow period between the 1969 and 1979 (I discovered the show in syndication around 1977-78, and I may have already been reading the James Blish books by that point).

So while it's true that there was no new Star Trek during that decade, I wouldn't call that period "empty". For me, every episode I saw for a while was a new one.

TOS was on the air for three years. TNG was on for seven years. TNG was more successful during it's run. That is fact. If you want to throw movies into the mix, then yes the original cast was more successful since they lasted 6 movies and most of them were better than TNG did in 4. That one I'll give you. But television series? Not even close. TOS was kicked off the air due to bad ratings while TNG was still strong when the series ended.
And if it weren't for TOS, and its fanbase, there would have been no movies, no TNG and no franchise. Pointing at TNG's ratings alone proves nothing. Especially since, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, it was discovered that TOS was actually a huge hit - among the demographic that they wanted to reach. But Nielsen didn't track those numbers back then - just the raw numbers, and by those metrics, yes, TOS did poorly.

The truth is, science fiction and fantasy have always been something of a niche interest. No incarnation of Trek is going to get the raw number of eyeballs that Friends got, or Big Bang Theory, or How I Met Your Mother. But science fiction fans are passionate, and we spend money on the merchandising, which makes it worth the studios' while to give us something to watch. (When was the last time you walked past someone on the street who was wearing a Seinfeld T-shirt, for instance?)
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Old August 21 2013, 07:38 AM   #139
Shaka Zulu
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Thanks, that one and this one are my favorites.



I gotta be a true fan to have done that one!!!!
This is insane, and in a great way!

Now there can be a remake of Yellow Submarine, but we can call it Star Trek: Yellow Submarine! Of course, it would have to be explained as a dream, or that they had gone to a lost colony called Pepperland invaded by aliens that acted like the Blue Meanies, or it's an alternate universe that the story's set in. But it might work, all the same.

EDIT: BTW, here's some art influenced by this pic and Yellow Submarine:

Star Trek Yellow Submarine

Star Trek Beatles
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Old August 21 2013, 11:33 AM   #140
Kinokima
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

I think we can all agree that TNG was a success too. It was one of the most successful first run syndicated shows.

But TOS was a success too. Unfortunately for its fans its true success was realized after the show was cancelled and it only got 3 seasons. But how many cancelled series can you name that got 6 movies and started an entire franchise?

And heck it wasn't just unfortunate for the fans. The actors were suddenly part of this big hit series but they weren't getting paid for it.

I am not sure what time slot TOS was on its first season but in its 3rd season it was pushed at 10:00 Friday night. One of its main audiences was college students, what do you think they were doing Friday night (and remember this was well before VCRs)

When the reruns went into syndication & could be put on better times it proved it had a size able audience.

I actually think Star Trek's success story is pretty historically interesting.
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Old August 21 2013, 01:44 PM   #141
J.T.B.
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post

But it's not really comparable. TNG was first-run syndication, where the competition was considerably less than it would be in a network prime-time slot. TNG, like TOS, never cracked the top 30 in ratings, and it is highly doubtful it would have lasted as long as it did on one of the big four broadcast networks.
That's not entirely accurate, though. During TNG's real heydey, around the time of the 5th and 6th seasons, it was pulling in ratings that went head-to-head with its network competition. In particular, I remember Paramount being very proud of the fact that TNG was beating the ratings for Monday Night Football.
So, what's not accurate? There's no way to really compare TNG head-to-head with network competition because it aired at different times all over the country. And there is no reason to assume that TNG would have made it to a 5th or 6th season in network prime time. Maybe, but it would be a lot harder than in syndication, where it was the dominant property in the market.
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Old August 21 2013, 02:21 PM   #142
CoveTom
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

In its fifth season (1991-1992), TNG averaged 11.5 million viewers. During that same year, Law & Order -- a major network show that was successful enough to run 20 seasons -- averaged 12.3 million. The Cosby Show averaged 13.6 million.

Regardless of where or at what time it was airing, TNG was pulling viewership numbers comparable to the major network shows of the time. And although airing in syndication has some advantages in terms of competition and such, it also has some disadvantages -- such as getting viewership in markets that choose to air the show at 3 am on Thursday.

My point is not that TNG's situation is directly comparable to a network show. But it WAS pulling network-level ratings, and I think the amount of popularity it enjoyed at the time could have translated to a network without difficulty. And I think it's the only Trek show that really could have accomplished network success at that level.
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Old August 21 2013, 02:43 PM   #143
J.T.B.
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
In its fifth season (1991-1992), TNG averaged 11.5 million viewers. During that same year, Law & Order -- a major network show that was successful enough to run 20 seasons -- averaged 12.3 million. The Cosby Show averaged 13.6 million.

Regardless of where or at what time it was airing, TNG was pulling viewership numbers comparable to the major network shows of the time. And although airing in syndication has some advantages in terms of competition and such, it also has some disadvantages -- such as getting viewership in markets that choose to air the show at 3 am on Thursday.
I still don't see how what I wrote is not accurate. "Where or at what time it was airing" is at the heart of the issue, because if it were a network show it would have the same competition across markets and that would affect its numbers.

My point is not that TNG's situation is directly comparable to a network show. But it WAS pulling network-level ratings, and I think the amount of popularity it enjoyed at the time could have translated to a network without difficulty. And I think it's the only Trek show that really could have accomplished network success at that level.
Maybe, but there's no way to know, because see above. It would be interesting to see the ratings of network shows that were renewed 1987-1991, that might give a better idea of whether TNG would have made the cut in its early seasons.
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Old August 21 2013, 03:10 PM   #144
BillJ
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post

Maybe, but there's no way to know, because see above. It would be interesting to see the ratings of network shows that were renewed 1987-1991, that might give a better idea of whether TNG would have made the cut in its early seasons.
I'm not sure ratings would tell the complete story.

Would TNG draw as many viewers if it had to compete directly with Monday Night Football or the Cosby Show? What if it had ended up on Fox which had limited penetration during its early years? Would it have even been the same show had it aired on a network?

Was TNG popular and successful? Of course. But you simply can't look at that popularity and success in a vacuum. Would we still be talking about it today if it had been called Space Patrol? Would it have gotten the huge budget right out of the gate if it wasn't trading on the success of the Star Trek name? Would it have gotten prime time slots if it hadn't been associated with Star Trek? Would the general public have been eager to watch it if it hadn't been associated with Star Trek? I think the answer to all those questions is 'no'.
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Old August 21 2013, 03:20 PM   #145
J.T.B.
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

BillJ wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post

Maybe, but there's no way to know, because see above. It would be interesting to see the ratings of network shows that were renewed 1987-1991, that might give a better idea of whether TNG would have made the cut in its early seasons.
I'm not sure ratings would tell the complete story.

Would TNG draw as many viewers if it had to compete directly with Monday Night Football or the Cosby Show? What if it had ended up on Fox which had limited penetration during its early years? Would it have even been the same show had it aired on a network?
I agree completely, but like I said it might give a better idea.
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Old August 21 2013, 05:48 PM   #146
CoveTom
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

There's absolutely no question that TNG rode the wave of the popularity of TOS. But the original discussion was more about whether TOS or TNG was more popular at the time they originally aired.

TOS always struggled as a network series. It only managed to eek out three seasons, and even that was with a lot of turmoil. It was only after it left the air and went into syndication that it's popularity exploded, and then came the movies which, especially with TWOK and TVH, were blockbusters.

TNG, OTOH, was strong at the time it originally aired. It had solid ratings, it ran for seven seasons, and it was profitable and popular enough at the end of its run to warrant an immediate bump to the big screen.

My contention is not that overall, in the grand 50-year history of Star Trek, that TNG is more popular than TOS. No question TOS wins that contest. It's the iconic one. It's the one that has endured the longest. It's the one the public still knows to this day. And, let's face it, it's the one Paramount went back to when they needed a new start for Trek.

My contention is only that at the time they originally aired, TNG did better than TOS. And that TNG was phenomenally popular during that seven year period of time.
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Old August 21 2013, 06:12 PM   #147
Kinokima
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

CoveTom wrote: View Post
My contention is only that at the time they originally aired, TNG did better than TOS. And that TNG was phenomenally popular during that seven year period of time.

But my question is does that really matter in the grand scheme of things?

Also looking at all factors we can say the reason TOS failed during its original run is because it wasn't given a fair chance.

Keep in mind this whole discussion started when someone said TNG won because it stayed on the air for 7 years instead of 3 but you do have to look at extenuating circumstances.

I think neither series really wins, but people of course should not discount TOS because it only had 3 seasons. That isn't to say we should discount TNG either.

I don't think there should be a competition at all really.
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Old August 21 2013, 11:44 PM   #148
jazzstick
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Re: is TOS the only 'true' Star Trek?

xvicente wrote: View Post
-Relics
-Trials and Tribblelations
-Flashback
-In a Mirror, Darkly

All these are considered among the best episodes in their respective series. None of the 4 spinoffs have this kind of homage from each other;

The spinoffs are called spinoffs;

Kirk is mentioned in dialogue in the other series (except ENT of course -- but they went up to consider bring Shatner for their 6th season); Spock and Sarek were in TNG;

McCoy appeared in the TNG pilot; the next episode (Naked Now) was a remake of one of TOS, complete with Picard looking in awe at "Kirk's ship" in a computer screen.

TNG wasn't let spawn a movie series unless Shatner was in it, despite the absurdity of the plot that made it so.

TNG does not even has a proper name: its simply The Next
Generation (weekly reminding Kirk's was the first)

The 2009 reboot is TOS. Made millions.

I wonder.

I often wonder if slugs are just homeless snails...
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