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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 7 2013, 06:53 AM   #196
Makarov
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I don't think Riker's comment on there being no joy is ridiculous... I mean if all the emotion has been sucked out of the crew and they're just miserable cogs in a war machine, they might as well be borg.

Sure the crew was obligated to follow Jellico to a T, but the world of TNG is more complex than just following orders. How many times has the crew been saved because a crewmember did something outside the chain of command? Including Data who directly disobeys Picard in "Redemption."

Riker and Jellico both acted badly, as far as I'm concerned but Jellico had more responsibility to diffuse the conflict, which he deliberately chose not to do.
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Old August 7 2013, 07:00 AM   #197
Mojochi
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

^Joy is not the only emotion, Dude. That life is less fun is not a paramount concern of a potential wartime captain

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
It's not just Riker...the near telepath also expresses confusion about his Jellico's orders and says that "He doesn't know what he's doing...." Or something like that.
All due respect, you're misinterpreting. I believe you're referring to when Jellico is negotiating with the Cardassians the 1st time, & Riker says about Jellico "I'll give him this... He's sure of himself" & Troi says "No... He isn't", presumably sensing uncertainty

She's correct. He isn't sure that what he's doing with the Cardassians will work. In fact, he's pretty sure it won't. He told Picard that much himself. It's his only diplomatic shot at that time, & he's taking it, the way he's supposed to

However, that he thinks the negotiations will fail has nothing to do with his confidence in running a starship. Nobody said anything about him lacking surety in that. They just didn't like it because they thought their way of doing things shouldn't be changed, and that's not their call to make
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Old August 7 2013, 11:07 AM   #198
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

No one seems to consider that the situation itself could be the source of some stress it seems, what with Enterprise gearing up for a war footing, that has to cause tension in the crew, and Jellico's changes must make it clear that to the rank and file that the situation is about to get serious.
If the CO puts science labs and survey teams on the back burner then the crews got to figure something is up, but what Jellico does is absolutely right for the safety of the crew. Jellico might feel that he has not got the time to ease the crew into his style but he is not showing disregard for their safety.
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Old August 7 2013, 01:17 PM   #199
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Makarov wrote: View Post
I don't think Riker's comment on there being no joy is ridiculous... I mean if all the emotion has been sucked out of the crew and they're just miserable cogs in a war machine, they might as well be borg.

Sure the crew was obligated to follow Jellico to a T, but the world of TNG is more complex than just following orders. How many times has the crew been saved because a crewmember did something outside the chain of command? Including Data who directly disobeys Picard in "Redemption."

Riker and Jellico both acted badly, as far as I'm concerned but Jellico had more responsibility to diffuse the conflict, which he deliberately chose not to do.
But Jellico never abused his power or gave unlawful orders. They were just different and he maintained his position on keeping them unchanged. If you disobey something like changing a shift schedule you are not going to get praised for "outside the box" thinking, you are going to get reamed and rightfully so.

Jellico didn't need to diffuse anything. He was likeable enough to the crew until they either A) blatently refused an order (looking at you Riker) or B) bitched and moaned about the orders and begged the XO to play mom vs dad with Picard and Jellico (looking at you Geordi). What Jellico needed was for his XO to do his job.
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Old August 7 2013, 03:25 PM   #200
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

About the Troi uniform thing, Jellico was absolutely within his right to request that she put on a real uniform. She's an officer and a member of the crew. Not to mention the fact he handled it appropriately. He told her to put on a real uniform in a private conversation and not in front of the crew.

One thing that does bug me about Jellico and it's a small one is him basically telling Picard to get his shit out of the ready room. Uh, dude, you know this is only a temporary assignment, right? If I were to stay in someone's house for a week while they were gone, I wouldn't be throwing telling them to take their stuff with them because it was bothering me. It's not exactly like Picard's ready room looked like a hoarders den. He had a fish, a big Shakesphere book, and a model of the Stargazer there as personal effects. Jellico throwing everything out of the ready room for a temporary assignment was douchy. Minor thing but still...

Speaking of shitty things to do, Nechynv's over-the-top declarlation that Picard was no longer the captain of the Enterprise is another one. It's a temporary assignment but she acted like they were kicking Picard out of Starfleet and marching him into a cell. Ridiculous.
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Old August 7 2013, 04:06 PM   #201
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Listen, Riker wouldn't put up with the shit he gave Jellico if he were put in command of a ship with a specific mission and his XO gave him even a fraction of the crap he gave Jellico.
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Old August 7 2013, 04:13 PM   #202
Use of Time
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
About the Troi uniform thing, Jellico was absolutely within his right to request that she put on a real uniform. She's an officer and a member of the crew. Not to mention the fact he handled it appropriately. He told her to put on a real uniform in a private conversation and not in front of the crew.

One thing that does bug me about Jellico and it's a small one is him basically telling Picard to get his shit out of the ready room. Uh, dude, you know this is only a temporary assignment, right? If I were to stay in someone's house for a week while they were gone, I wouldn't be throwing telling them to take their stuff with them because it was bothering me. It's not exactly like Picard's ready room looked like a hoarders den. He had a fish, a big Shakesphere book, and a model of the Stargazer there as personal effects. Jellico throwing everything out of the ready room for a temporary assignment was douchy. Minor thing but still...

Speaking of shitty things to do, Nechynv's over-the-top declarlation that Picard was no longer the captain of the Enterprise is another one. It's a temporary assignment but she acted like they were kicking Picard out of Starfleet and marching him into a cell. Ridiculous.
Yeah, the writing team didn't deal well with the subtleties of Jellico and Necheyev. It was almost like those instances you recognized were the writer's way of saying, "in case you missed, these are antagonists!" It was almost like they didn't trust the audience enough to figure it out or they were afraid conversations would happen much like in this thread where people side with Jellico.

For example,

Jellico: "I want to go to four shifts, blah blah blah, get it done!"

Audience: "Well that seems reasonable because of heightened tensions, preparations for war, etc."

Jellico: "Jean-Luc get your stupid fish out of my ready room."

Audience: "Oooooooooh, so he is an asshole."
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Old August 7 2013, 04:27 PM   #203
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
Uh, dude, you know this is only a temporary assignment, right?
No one said it was a temporary assignment. Even Riker points out that they usually don't have the ceremony unless it's permanent. Jellico actually suspects that Picard won't even be coming back (& very nearly didn't).

Maybe Jellico wasn't cordial in just telling Picard "The Enterprise is mine now", and then rubbing it in a bit, by handing the book off right then, but he did it respectfully, & Picard was sort of butting his nose in. He never said the fish thing to Picard. He said it to Riker

Use of Time wrote: View Post
Jellico didn't need to diffuse anything. He was likeable enough to the crew until they either A) blatently refused an order (looking at you Riker) or B) bitched and moaned about the orders and begged the XO to play mom vs dad with Picard and Jellico (looking at you Geordi). What Jellico needed was for his XO to do his job.
I take it easy on Geordi a bit here. I mean Riker neglected an order, & then downright challenged the captain's authority in front of a subordinate. That's just plain terrible officer behavior

All Geordi did was make counterpoints to the captain's directives, as a way of objecting slightly & his attitude was a little off from taking it personally, because the new directives kind of flew in the face of how he'd been doing things with his department, which previously had been considered some of the best work in the fleet. He has a right to be put off some. He's not just some flunky. He's one of Starfleet's best. Ultimately though, he carries out his orders without incident, & in turn, Jellico doesn't come down on him too hard for being a bit upset. You can tell he understands

As for going to Riker. That's what he's supposed to do when he feels overwhelmed, and he & his department were. His suggestion to involve Picard was a last ditch desperate grab, & yeah it was stupid, but he's not outside his rights to suggest it.

Riker, on the other hand, should have laughed at it, & told him "That's not going to work, Geordi. I'd be stupid to even try it. Jellico's the captain, & going to our ex-captain just makes me look like I don't respect his authority. He already thinks that about me because I botched an order up"
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Old August 7 2013, 04:34 PM   #204
R. Star
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
About the Troi uniform thing, Jellico was absolutely within his right to request that she put on a real uniform. She's an officer and a member of the crew. Not to mention the fact he handled it appropriately. He told her to put on a real uniform in a private conversation and not in front of the crew.

One thing that does bug me about Jellico and it's a small one is him basically telling Picard to get his shit out of the ready room. Uh, dude, you know this is only a temporary assignment, right? If I were to stay in someone's house for a week while they were gone, I wouldn't be throwing telling them to take their stuff with them because it was bothering me. It's not exactly like Picard's ready room looked like a hoarders den. He had a fish, a big Shakesphere book, and a model of the Stargazer there as personal effects. Jellico throwing everything out of the ready room for a temporary assignment was douchy. Minor thing but still...

Speaking of shitty things to do, Nechynv's over-the-top declarlation that Picard was no longer the captain of the Enterprise is another one. It's a temporary assignment but she acted like they were kicking Picard out of Starfleet and marching him into a cell. Ridiculous.
Seriously? You're that determined to vilify the man because he has the audacity to put a personal touch on his office? In case you missed this from the episode...

GEORDI(to Riker)I wonder how permanent this is going to be.

RIKER I don't know... but they don't usually go through the ceremony if it's just a temporary assignment.

So Riker admitted he didn't know. For all we know when Necheyev briefed Jellico it was assumed this would be a long term command change. Both of them seemed to think Picard was likely to die on that mission(oh by the way, the only reason he was released was because Jellico strongarmed Lemec). I wouldn't be surprised if the whole crew of the Cairo thinks the Enterprise is crewed by a bunch of whiny babies.
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Old August 7 2013, 05:38 PM   #205
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I would have loved to have seen what kind of officers were on the Cairo. Definitely a missed opportunity.

Okay, so maybe it was going to be longer than expected. Fair enough. But Jellico and Necheyev were still assholes with the way they went about the change. As Use of Time pointed out, it's like the writers had to pound it over the head of the audience that these were antagonists. Didn't Jellico literally throw the book at Picard.
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Old August 7 2013, 06:04 PM   #206
Makarov
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

It's been a while since I've seen this ep, misplaced my disc. I wonder though if they could have just filled Riker in and had him be captain during this mission instead of Jellico. He was pretty good at diplomacy in that episode about the stable wormhole.
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Old August 7 2013, 06:08 PM   #207
Use of Time
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Makarov wrote: View Post
It's been a while since I've seen this ep, misplaced my disc. I wonder though if they could have just filled Riker in and had him be captain during this mission instead of Jellico. He was pretty good at diplomacy in that episode about the stable wormhole.
I think that was what Riker initially wanted when Necheyev briefed them but she was pretty entrenched with Jellico due to his experience with Cardassians.
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Old August 7 2013, 06:19 PM   #208
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Which is likely where Riker's pettiness comes from. He always saw the Enterprise as his and Starfleet dared to put an officer more experienced with the Cardassians in command.
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Old August 7 2013, 06:24 PM   #209
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I hope Jellico got a huge commendation after that one. He managed to get a reluctant starship crew ready for the worst, he averted a war with the Cardassians and showed the balls of steel to bluff the Cardassians into giving Picard back. I thought the final scene where no one bothered to acknowledge Jellico's parting "It has been an honor to serve with you" may have been the biggest false note of all. Riker could have called the bridge crew to attention as he left, just as a respectful send off without false mushiness. But no, they just sat on their hands while a guy who pulled off a mission Kirk might not have been able to handle left the bridge. I also thought there should have been some sort of follow up with Riker discussing the situation with Picard and/or Troi regarding his conduct. The earlier poster was right: no way would Riker put up with the crap he gave Jellico and he needed to have his nose rubbed in it.
When you get down to it Jellico treated officers who pleased him very well. Sure he loved Data, but even Data had to tell him back off once. Jellico did (albeit reluctantly) and held no grudge. He also had a friendly conversation with Geordi that led to him going back to Riker and begging him to fly the mission. Jellico was certainly a bigger man in that situation than I would have been.
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Old August 7 2013, 06:27 PM   #210
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I loved the performance Ronny Cox gave and wish we would have seen more of Jellico in Modern Trek.
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