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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 6 2013, 01:00 AM   #181
Sector 7
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
You all continue to ignore the fact that Jellico had everyone walking on eggshells around him. Creating an atmosphere of confusion and fear, while you keep the people you work with in the dark is not being an effective leader.

And it cost Captain Bossypants an effective asset in Riker. It also removed half the purpose of an XO is promoting an emotionless android to the position of First Officer. Data would be awesome in 'Making it So'. He would be nigh useless in 'feeling out the crew'....Hell he still had problems with GD metaphors at that point.*

*I'm not saying Data would be a useless XO, but it would definitely require some kind of restructuring of what Riker brought to the table.
The point of military combat readiness it to train, and train hard. Picard's crew needed shaking up and needed it fast. War was close to inevitable at that point.

Every military combat person knows that Chain of Command is important. It makes different soldiers from different backgrounds work together as a single unit [Unit Cohesion]. The Enterprise crew could learn a few lessons from real combat military crews.

I like the way Captain Jellico handled Troi's uniform issue. He asked if her rank was honorary, then told her to dress like the rank she held. It is still one of my favorite scenes from TNG.
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Old August 6 2013, 01:08 AM   #182
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
You all continue to ignore the fact that Jellico had everyone walking on eggshells around him. Creating an atmosphere of confusion and fear, while you keep the people you work with in the dark is not being an effective leader.
Speak for yourself. I'm not ignoring that at all. Jellico was wrong to put everyone on edge, but Riker was wrong to disobey him. Two wrongs don't make a right. Both guys needed to check their egos at the door and find a way to work together: Jellico because he was new and hadn't commanded Enterprise before, and Riker because he was first officer and the rest of the crew followed his lead when it came to taking orders from their captain, be it Picard, Jellico, or otherwise.

Jellico shouldn't have assumed that the crew would immediately fall into step behind him just because he was their captain (even though the rulebook says they should have). They were used to Picard's style; Jellico was more of a micro-manager and didn't allow his subordinates the freedom they had under their previous CO. He would have been better served explaining the reasoning behind what he was doing. The crew may have been more willing to follow him if they knew where they were being led.

At the same time, if Riker had behaved differently when Geordi and others whined about Jellico's duty-roster changes, things would have gone much more smoothly. Instead, he encouraged dissent by grumbling about Jellico himself rather than finding a way to work with him. Worse, he came perilously close to undermining Jellico's authority by going to Picard with a list of complaints. It was only after seeing how tired Picard was that Riker decided not to pursue the matter.

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Old August 6 2013, 01:12 AM   #183
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
I like the way Captain Jellico handled Troi's uniform issue. He asked if her rank was honorary, then told her to dress like the rank she held. It is still one of my favorite scenes from TNG.
I liked that, as well. People often complain about it, but I took what he did as a show of respect for Troi. He treated her like any other officer, something a lot of people never did because her training was in psychology rather than a traditional bridge specialty. I don't have a problem with her wearing a casual outfit while seeing patients in her quarters or office, but Jellico was right to ask her to wear a duty uniform while on the bridge.

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Old August 6 2013, 02:19 AM   #184
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Sran wrote: View Post
Sector 7 wrote: View Post
I like the way Captain Jellico handled Troi's uniform issue. He asked if her rank was honorary, then told her to dress like the rank she held. It is still one of my favorite scenes from TNG.
I liked that, as well. People often complain about it, but I took what he did as a show of respect for Troi. He treated her like any other officer, something a lot of people never did because her training was in psychology rather than a traditional bridge specialty. I don't have a problem with her wearing a casual outfit while seeing patients in her quarters or office, but Jellico was right to ask her to wear a duty uniform while on the bridge.

--Sran
He didn't order her because it was regulation, he did it because even he knew she looked better in the uniform.
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Old August 6 2013, 11:08 AM   #185
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Haha and she did looked better in uniform

Jellico was the captain and they were preparing for war.
And Riker behaved like a little child, only wanted to do things his way
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Old August 6 2013, 12:17 PM   #186
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
You all continue to ignore the fact that Jellico had everyone walking on eggshells around him. Creating an atmosphere of confusion and fear, while you keep the people you work with in the dark is not being an effective leader.

And it cost Captain Bossypants an effective asset in Riker. It also removed half the purpose of an XO is promoting an emotionless android to the position of First Officer. Data would be awesome in 'Making it So'. He would be nigh useless in 'feeling out the crew'....Hell he still had problems with GD metaphors at that point.*

*I'm not saying Data would be a useless XO, but it would definitely require some kind of restructuring of what Riker brought to the table.
Contrary to popular belief, an executive officer is not supposed to be this second conscience for the commanding officer. He is supposed to "exectute" the commander's intent. That's it. An XO is essentially a staff manager. Data would have been, and actually performed superbly as a first officer. We saw him actually side with Jellico on occasion saying his orders were possible when the crew was waffling.

As for Jellico having the whole crew on edge. That is ridiculous considering what most of them had been through the first four seasons. If Starfleet Academy is as rigorous as they make it sound, then they shouldn't act like such delicate little flowers when they get a no nonsense CO. I bet the crew of the USS Cairo would have laughed at the Federation flagship's crew.
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Old August 6 2013, 01:31 PM   #187
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

He did not have them "On Edge". Riker described it as "Having everybody wound up so tight... there's no joy" Which is about the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard

All he did was ruffle a few senior staff feathers, & take some people out of their comfort zone. The main objection of anyone on the crew was that business as usual should be good enough for Jellico. It wasn't, & since Jellico was conducting a mission direct from Starfleet... Boohoo... Get to work
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Old August 6 2013, 03:07 PM   #188
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

^ Exactly. If the officers had concentrated on executing the CO's orders instead of moping about the changes he was making they would have been fine. If they had acted professionally, they would have sucked it up, done their jobs and not been "on edge."

The greatest disservice was done to the Riker character. He was portrayed as whiny, nearly insubordinate and unprofessional, and uncomfortably similar to another terrible unprofessional XO, Mr. Hobson of Sutherland in "Redemtion part 2."
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Old August 6 2013, 03:34 PM   #189
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

That part of the episode always bugged me. Riker's role in front of his subordinates is to reinforce his commanding officers orders as long as they are causing danger. He can listen and understand what they are going through. But he should have never joined in. One on one with his commanding officer, he could went after him but behind his back, he needs to support his commanding officer. Once he joins in with the grumbling, he makes the situation hundreds times worse.
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Old August 6 2013, 03:49 PM   #190
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Chensams wrote: View Post
That part of the episode always bugged me. Riker's role in front of his subordinates is to reinforce his commanding officers orders as long as they are causing danger. He can listen and understand what they are going through. But he should have never joined in. One on one with his commanding officer, he could went after him but behind his back, he needs to support his commanding officer. Once he joins in with the grumbling, he makes the situation hundreds times worse.
Yep, he should have squashed Geordi's idea to talk to Capt. Picard. I can't believe Riker even entertained that ridiculous notion.
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Old August 6 2013, 03:54 PM   #191
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

He did not have them "On Edge". Riker described it as "Having everybody wound up so tight... there's no joy" Which is about the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard
Love that statement from Riker... Ummm how cheery and happy are the crew supposed to be when potentially they are about to find themselves at the forefront of a war?

If Jellico has a fault its that having dressed down Riker about his orders not being followed, he seemed reluctant to see if Riker would improve from then on ( Possible given that he knows Riker has been used to a different command style). Then again, as it turns out his instincts about Riker are right given having been dressed down, Riker should have taken it on the chin and adapted to his new Captains way of doing things.
Of Course Riker has a bit of a history of writing off officers without giving them a chance himself....
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Old August 7 2013, 12:32 AM   #192
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Mojochi wrote: View Post
He did not have them "On Edge". Riker described it as "Having everybody wound up so tight... there's no joy" Which is about the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard

All he did was ruffle a few senior staff feathers, & take some people out of their comfort zone. The main objection of anyone on the crew was that business as usual should be good enough for Jellico. It wasn't, & since Jellico was conducting a mission direct from Starfleet... Boohoo... Get to work
It's not just Riker...the near telepath also expresses confusion about his Jellico's orders and says that "He doesn't know what he's doing...." Or something like that.
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Old August 7 2013, 01:17 AM   #193
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
It's not just Riker...the near telepath also expresses confusion about his Jellico's orders and says that "He doesn't know what he's doing...." Or something like that.
No she doesn't.

Chain of Command I wrote:
DATA: Captain on the Bridge.
JELLICO: Let him stew for a few minutes, then go in and tell him you've convinced me to meet with him one more time. Tell him I'm a loose cannon and that he needs to be more reasonable because I'm such an unreasonable man. Lemec will want to bring his own aides on board. Pretend to be worried that I'll object, and then give grudging permission for two aides, no more. Understood?
TROI: Yes, sir.
RIKER: Aye, sir.
(Jellico goes into his Ready room)
RIKER: Well, I'll say this for him. He's sure of himself.
TROI: No, he's not.
Anyone in that position, with war hanging in the balance, would be unsure of themselves. They wouldn't be human if they weren't. See: Balance of Terror.
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Old August 7 2013, 03:00 AM   #194
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I always liked Jellico, especially in the above quoted scene. Screw the whiny Enterprise crew.
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Old August 7 2013, 03:40 AM   #195
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Jellico probably was nervous as all hell about the prospect of war. Unlike Riker though he checked his emotions at the door, was leading with confidence and resolved the situation, and he was fully ready if things went sour. I greatly enjoyed the character and the depth to him for a two episode guest star.

Plus Riker complaining about Jellico riding him to hard is just hypocrisy. He's been hard on every extra with a line save O'brien. Ro, Lavelle, and Barclay. Basically anyone outside the command clique he's standoffish towards. Jellico, unlike those people, wasn't about to put up with it and had the rank to back it up.
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