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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 5 2013, 12:30 PM   #166
sariel2005
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I haven't watched Chain of Command in a while but when Riker felt that switching to a four-shift rotation wasn't going to work, he didn't decide to run this by Jellico? If so, then what kind of an officer does that? If Riker felt it wasn't going to work, he should have told Jellico this. Jellico could still order this to happen of course but still, what kind of a first officer wouldn't relay this information to his captain before being prompted to do so?
In fairness to Riker, he ran the changes past the department heads who said they would have problems implimenting the changes. He WAS going to talk to Jellico about it after the transfer ceremony but was preempted by Jellico's orders to launch a probe.
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Old August 5 2013, 03:52 PM   #167
Makarov
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Picard was somewhat demanding of Riker too in season 1 but he didn't make Riker fly off the handle like Jellico does. Seems like bad leadership to me on Jellico's part that he couldn't reel Riker in somehow.

Also you'd think Riker would be in favor of the four-shift rotation, seeing as he ordered everybody to sleep during the Best of Both Worlds while there was a borg threat.
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Old August 5 2013, 04:41 PM   #168
BillJ
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Makarov wrote: View Post
Picard was somewhat demanding of Riker too in season 1 but he didn't make Riker fly off the handle like Jellico does. Seems like bad leadership to me on Jellico's part that he couldn't reel Riker in somehow.
I really don't see how it's bad leadership. If anything, it shows an incredible amount of inflexibility on Riker's part.

Riker never seemed to keen on lower ranking officers questioning his orders either.
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Old August 5 2013, 05:08 PM   #169
Use of Time
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

BillJ wrote: View Post
Makarov wrote: View Post
Picard was somewhat demanding of Riker too in season 1 but he didn't make Riker fly off the handle like Jellico does. Seems like bad leadership to me on Jellico's part that he couldn't reel Riker in somehow.
I really don't see how it's bad leadership. If anything, it shows an incredible amount of inflexibility on Riker's part.

Riker never seemed to keen on lower ranking officers questioning his orders either.
That and the Riker from season 1 was still a little green. The Riker that Jellico had to deal with was probably a little too big for his britches after coming off of the Borg invasion.
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Old August 5 2013, 07:28 PM   #170
Makarov
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Well I think Jellico kind of berated Riker in front of Picard, putting him on the defensive immediately. Riker doesn't seem like a person who has a problem following strict commands, but Jellico pissed him off and thus he was unable to use Riker to his maximum potential.
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Old August 5 2013, 07:44 PM   #171
Use of Time
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Makarov wrote: View Post
Well I think Jellico kind of berated Riker in front of Picard, putting him on the defensive immediately. Riker doesn't seem like a person who has a problem following strict commands, but Jellico pissed him off and thus he was unable to use Riker to his maximum potential.
Which would not be Jellico's fault. If what you are saying is true then that is a poor reflection of Riker, who would be taking a very petty approach in not giving his best effort to the new Captain and putting the mission at risk.
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Old August 5 2013, 08:03 PM   #172
BillJ
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Makarov wrote: View Post
Well I think Jellico kind of berated Riker in front of Picard, putting him on the defensive immediately. Riker doesn't seem like a person who has a problem following strict commands, but Jellico pissed him off and thus he was unable to use Riker to his maximum potential.
Jellico didn't berate Riker until he found out his orders weren't being followed. He was very cordial to Riker in the beginning.

Imagine how Picard would've reacted in Encounter at Farpoint if he left his ready room two hours after giving an order and found that his ship was in two pieces because Riker disagreed with it.
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Old August 5 2013, 08:15 PM   #173
Bacl
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

It's not a black-and-white issue, which is exactly why it is so compelling and engaging.

Riker was right on certain points and wrong on others.

Jellicho was right on some points and wrong on others.

When Jellico says that he wants to change shift rotations from, I believe, 3 to 4, there should have been no question. They were entering into what very nearly was the brink of war, and personal projects and preferred off-hours take a backseat to that. Jellico was right to be appalled at the fact that he gave this ordered and it was not carried out.

His technique for dealing with the Cardassians was actually effective. He was able to come out on top, resolve the conflict with the Federation winning, and even get Picard back. Riker may have piloted the shuttle, but it was Jellico's leadership and plan that got them there.

On the other hand, it was foolish for Jellico to walk onboard the flagship of the Federation and declare from the very start "I'm not here to make friends and hold hands." People aren't going to serve you well with that attitude. Expecting orders to be followed and your technique not to be questioned is fine, but being an unyielding, impatient, and inattentive Captain is not good leadership. A real good example of this is telling Counselor Troi to change into a formal uniform; that has no bearing whatsoever on the mission or how commands are carried out. Everything we have seen up until that point has indicated that a ship's counselor is not just an average officer, but rather a hybrid between Starfleet officer and professional civilian. It always was presented as being normal and acceptable that she could dress in civilian clothing, and up until that point her Starfleet rank was more or less incidental. Hell, even in "Night Terrors" we see the Science Advisor of another ship dressed in civilian clothing, meaning that this is not the British Navy in space but instead a group of scientists and leaders who use a millitary-like command structure without actual being full-on millitary. Jellico was doing nothing but causing tension when he told Troi to dress formally on his bridge. Half a dozen other actions of his were in the same vein: disruptive, disrespectful, and serving no purpose other than to create stress.
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Old August 5 2013, 08:33 PM   #174
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Bacl wrote: View Post
On the other hand, it was foolish for Jellico to walk onboard the flagship of the Federation and declare from the very start "I'm not here to make friends and hold hands."
So he should have lied to them?

Jellico was strict military and was brought in to handle a military situation. I saw what was suppose to be the "best of the best" bitch and moan that this guy was upsetting their routine.

Even Data said the changes Jellico wanted were doable.
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Old August 5 2013, 08:35 PM   #175
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

He said "I don't have time to baby anyone" to Picard in private. In every situation Jellico was friendly and cordial when he first met someone. He only got confrontational when Riker was purposefully obstructing his orders. He was completely out of line. Jellico had every right to ask Troi to wear a uniform. Being she was going to be present during the negotiations, it makes perfect sense to look professional and not casual. To say nothing of sending a message to the crew that we're here to be professional in a hard situation. Unlike Riker, she didn't argue it or just refuse to change, she said yes sir and did it. Jellico's changes may have been disruptive, but he was preparing the ship to go from exploration mode to war mode. He only got disrespectful to Riker when he was refusing to do what he was told. Riker behaved quite childishly during this episode, complete with going to his room to sulk because he didn't get his way. Jellico may have created some stress, but these are trained professionals who are supposed to be the first line of defense against a belligerent race. They should be expected to cope with it.
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Old August 5 2013, 10:19 PM   #176
Makarov
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

BillJ wrote: View Post
Imagine how Picard would've reacted in Encounter at Farpoint if he left his ready room two hours after giving an order and found that his ship was in two pieces because Riker disagreed with it.
That's an alternate timeline I would like to see Picard gives him the order and then finds Riker hitting on some girl in ten-forward.

I guess I'm on Riker's side because by this point he'd proven his leadership abilities in BOBW, and we know he's been offered his own command. So if Riker thinks something wouldn't work it's probably worth bringing up to the captain. "I bring all the alternatives to the captain's attention."

And the difference between Jellico / Riker and Riker / Shelby is that by the end of BOBW, Shelby and Riker both respected each other. By the end Chains of Command Jellico and Riker still hate each other.
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Old August 5 2013, 10:26 PM   #177
BillJ
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Makarov wrote: View Post

I guess I'm on Riker's side because by this point he'd proven his leadership abilities in BOBW, and we know he's been offered his own command. So if Riker thinks something wouldn't work it's probably worth bringing up to the captain. "I bring all the alternatives to the captain's attention."
Then you bring up the issue right then or you carry out the order. You don't allow the Captain to walk around thinking his orders have been carried out when they haven't.

Riker is simply wrong.
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Old August 5 2013, 10:57 PM   #178
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Makarov wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Imagine how Picard would've reacted in Encounter at Farpoint if he left his ready room two hours after giving an order and found that his ship was in two pieces because Riker disagreed with it.
That's an alternate timeline I would like to see Picard gives him the order and then finds Riker hitting on some girl in ten-forward.

I guess I'm on Riker's side because by this point he'd proven his leadership abilities in BOBW, and we know he's been offered his own command. So if Riker thinks something wouldn't work it's probably worth bringing up to the captain. "I bring all the alternatives to the captain's attention."

And the difference between Jellico / Riker and Riker / Shelby is that by the end of BOBW, Shelby and Riker both respected each other. By the end Chains of Command Jellico and Riker still hate each other.
I will agree that Riker should have been a Captain by then but that one is also on him. At some point he decided he didn't want to go anywhere until the Enterprise was available and that meant serving as First Officer. If he thought he had enough momentum to Captain a starship then he should have taken one of the multiple commands offered to him.
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Old August 5 2013, 11:11 PM   #179
Sran
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Makarov wrote: View Post
I guess I'm on Riker's side because by this point he'd proven his leadership abilities in BOBW, and we know he's been offered his own command.
Except that doesn't matter. Riker's hardly alone in having an outstanding service record and isn't above Starfleet regulations merely because he found a way to beat the Borg. He agreed to serve under Jellico and was obligated to follow his orders. If he had a problem with the change of command, he could have requested reassignment himself or taken leave while Jellico was aboard. He didn't have to stay.

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Old August 6 2013, 12:47 AM   #180
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

You all continue to ignore the fact that Jellico had everyone walking on eggshells around him. Creating an atmosphere of confusion and fear, while you keep the people you work with in the dark is not being an effective leader.

And it cost Captain Bossypants an effective asset in Riker. It also removed half the purpose of an XO is promoting an emotionless android to the position of First Officer. Data would be awesome in 'Making it So'. He would be nigh useless in 'feeling out the crew'....Hell he still had problems with GD metaphors at that point.*

*I'm not saying Data would be a useless XO, but it would definitely require some kind of restructuring of what Riker brought to the table.
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