RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,214
Posts: 5,346,779
Members: 24,607
Currently online: 655
Newest member: lueth2048

TrekToday headlines

Funko Mini Spock
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

IDW Publishing Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

A Baby For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

Klingon Beer Arrives In The US
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Star Trek: Prelude To Axanar
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Abrams Announces Star Wars: Force For Change Sweepstakes
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

New Funko Trek Figure
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Saldana As A Role Model
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

San Diego Comic-Con Trek Fan Guide
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Cumberbatch As Turing
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 3 2013, 10:59 PM   #916
Admiral Bear
Captain
 
Admiral Bear's Avatar
 
Location: Permanent away mission with the fairies
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Some people actually use their TV's DNR settings? Frightening
Here in the UK, unless you have SKY HD, the vast majority of terrestrial TV is in SD. I find DNR really helps when I'm watching SD on a mid range to large LCD or Plasma screen. If nothing else, it helps to smooth the fuzz you get with SD.
Admiral Bear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2013, 11:06 PM   #917
Admiral Bear
Captain
 
Admiral Bear's Avatar
 
Location: Permanent away mission with the fairies
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Admiral Bear wrote: View Post
Going on eBay lately, there are a lot of second hand TNG Blu-ray sets for sale, even season 5 which has only been out a few weeks. You don't shell out £45 for a Blu-ray set and then stick it on eBay a week later. My guess is a lot of people are less than impressed with the quality.
If what you say is true, then where's all the hate on the internet about bad picture quality? Remember season 2? If people are underwhelmed by the other seasons, please show where.

Looking on eBay, all the copies I see are new.
Last week, a UK seller had all 5 seasons up for sale second hand. I couldn't believe it. Why buy them in the first place?

I don't trawl this forum looking for people complaining about the quality of the sets, but I've seen a fair few grumbles on the season 5 thread.
Admiral Bear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2013, 11:08 PM   #918
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Grain is physically part of the film. It's not a defect that needs to be fixed. It's supposed to be there.
jimbotron wrote: View Post
The worst is that frame blending feature that most TVs have now.

For when you want a movie to look like a football broadcast - YUCK. Everything looks unnatural.
You mean the jutter elimination? Yeah, that's just awful. It makes everything look like a soap opera. It's incredibly jarring.
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3 2013, 11:38 PM   #919
GameOn
Lieutenant Commander
 
GameOn's Avatar
 
Location: UK
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Admiral Bear wrote: View Post
Quite a few episodes I've watched from season 2 (OK, it's season 2!) have so much grain and distortion on the red of the command uniforms (usually Picard's) that the image seems to be on the verge of breaking up. That's the best I can describe it. Sorry.

I seem to be in a position now where due to the excess grain, I'm getting so disgruntled at the picture quality of a lot of these episodes, that I'm almost preferring the upscaled DVDs at 720p.
Season 2 does have more grain due to differences in film stock but it's not as bad as you're describing. It really sounds like the issue is with your TV and not the blu-ray transfers.
GameOn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 12:45 AM   #920
MakeshiftPython
Captain
 
MakeshiftPython's Avatar
 
Location: Ladies love Riker's beard.
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Not a lot of TV shows are shot in film today, so it can be jarring to see an HD presentation of a show that was made over 20 years ago, since it has been stuck in SD for so long that the grain was never noticeable until now, especially at high film speeds compared to TOS. I'm a photographer, so I enjoy seeing proper blu-ray transfers with film grain. That's about as pure as an image you will get from that format, the opposite at the end of the spectrum being THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY where everything looks like rubber city. Gawd, would I kill just to see a proper blu-ray transfer of that film! It'll also be interesting to see the shift between film and digital, between seasons 3 and 4 of ENT, as the change in format was only subtly noticeable on DVD.
MakeshiftPython is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 03:41 AM   #921
Maxwell Everett
Fleet Captain
 
Maxwell Everett's Avatar
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Admiral Bear wrote: View Post
Have you ever scanned a newspaper or magazine cutting at too high a resolution, the sort of res that's usually fine for scanning photos, but that makes a really grainy and fuzzy mess of newspaper print?

That's what a lot of TNG HD looks like. To a layman, it looks like either much of the film stock is in poor condition, or it's been scanned at too high a resolution.

Quite a few episodes I've watched from season 2 (OK, it's season 2!) have so much grain and distortion on the red of the command uniforms (usually Picard's) that the image seems to be on the verge of breaking up. That's the best I can describe it. Sorry.

I seem to be in a position now where due to the excess grain, I'm getting so disgruntled at the picture quality of a lot of these episodes, that I'm almost preferring the upscaled DVDs at 720p.
Well, considering the DVDs are objectively inferior in every possible sense compared to the Blu-rays, that's a pretty drastic thing to resort to... and so there's something either fundamentally wrong with your setup or your expectations. The film stock was actually in very good condition and it was not scanned at too high a resolution.

I don't mean this as condescending, but I assume you're hooked up via HDMI and not analog component cables, right? Have you calibrated your display -- at all? You're not viewing the episodes in a "dynamic" or "vivid" mode are you? If so, that could be unnaturally brightening the image and boosting the colors. Also, your sharpness should be set very, very low. You should not be artificially sharpening the image, that can make everything (particularly the grain) look very, very bad. And definitely turn off any DNR.

If your display is uncalibrated, start with a "movie" or "cinema" mode and tweak from there, based on the lighting conditions you're viewing the display in. That kind of a mode should be closest to a 6500 Kelvin or D65 reference color and have the best black levels. If you have a Blu-ray with a THX Optimizer, that would be better than nothing to calibrate with. They also have a free iPhone app that you can use called THX tune-up.
__________________
"Shake off all the fears & servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion." -Thomas Jefferson
Maxwell Everett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 08:20 AM   #922
MikeS
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Liverpool, UK
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

I wish these televisions came out of the box setup properly. Alot of that is just jargon to me! (Although I presume my tele is ok as I love the quality of these blu-ray's)
__________________
One day soon, man is going to be able to harness incredible energies, energies that could ultimately hurl us to other worlds in... some sort of spaceship.
MikeS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 10:58 AM   #923
d514
Ensign
 
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Admiral Bear wrote: View Post
but I was still having to turn down the sharpness to alleviate the grain
Maybe that's your problem. The sharpness setting is not the same on every TV! On some TVs a sharpness setting around 50% means that no sharpness is added or removed. The picture is as sharp as it is on the Blu-ray. On other TVs every setting above 0 adds sharpness and it is not possible to make the picture softer. If the sharpness setting is too high the grain will be a lot more noticeable.

Admiral Bear wrote: View Post
Last week, a UK seller had all 5 seasons up for sale second hand. I couldn't believe it. Why buy them in the first place?
Maybe he or she bought them just to watch the episodes again? Buying and selling is often cheaper than renting. And renting TV shows is often not possible.
Also I just read that someone sold all 5 seasons because the roof over his head is more important than TNG. He plans to buy them again when he can.
d514 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 11:50 AM   #924
Admiral Bear
Captain
 
Admiral Bear's Avatar
 
Location: Permanent away mission with the fairies
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post

Well, considering the DVDs are objectively inferior in every possible sense compared to the Blu-rays, that's a pretty drastic thing to resort to... and so there's something either fundamentally wrong with your setup or your expectations. The film stock was actually in very good condition and it was not scanned at too high a resolution.

I don't mean this as condescending, but I assume you're hooked up via HDMI and not analog component cables, right? Have you calibrated your display -- at all? You're not viewing the episodes in a "dynamic" or "vivid" mode are you? If so, that could be unnaturally brightening the image and boosting the colors. Also, your sharpness should be set very, very low. You should not be artificially sharpening the image, that can make everything (particularly the grain) look very, very bad. And definitely turn off any DNR.
Yes, hooked up via HDMI. My TV does have a dynamic setting. It's horrible, and I never use it. I generally use the "standard" setting which I tweak if I need to. Generally, I have the colour fairly low, contrast and brightness about mid range, the sharpness set to max (it's fine with no grain on broadcast HD), and the DNR mid to high in the advanced settings.

I've been turning the sharpness down to just over the mid range during the worst of the TNG grain, mainly to see what difference it makes. It does get rid of the grain, but then with shots with no grain, the picture looks like it's been DNRd to hell. I'll try taking the DNR off completely, but I don't think it will make that much of a difference in conjunction with lowering the sharpness. In my mind, I'm lowering the sharpness only to then increase the sharpness (and grain) by taking the DNR off.
Admiral Bear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 02:17 PM   #925
Start Wreck
Fleet Captain
 
Start Wreck's Avatar
 
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Turn sharpening off. Turn DNR off.

That's how it's supposed to look. Your eyes will adjust.
__________________
Fallen Star - My home-made sci-fi TV show
Start Wreck - My Star Trek spoof web comic
Doctor Who From The Start - A n00b does a blog
Start Wreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 02:48 PM   #926
trekker670
Captain
 
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Admiral Bear wrote: View Post
I've been turning the sharpness down to just over the mid range during the worst of the TNG grain, mainly to see what difference it makes. It does get rid of the grain, but then with shots with no grain, the picture looks like it's been DNRd to hell.
I must say, I'm baffled. You dislike the film grain, so you turn DNR on on your TV, but then dislike the look of the picture being DNRd so you increase sharpness to enhance what little grain is left in the DNRd picture.

What exactly is it you want the picture to look like?


Admiral Bear wrote: View Post
I'll try taking the DNR off completely, but I don't think it will make that much of a difference in conjunction with lowering the sharpness. In my mind, I'm lowering the sharpness only to then increase the sharpness (and grain) by taking the DNR off.
The difference here is that you'll be seeing the organic film grain, where as applying DNR and then increasing sharpness, the picture you seeing is being heavily modified by a computer algorithm and producing much more of an artificial appearance than the natural grain would.

I think once you get your TV set up properly you'll be in for a nice surprise at how good TNG-HD actually looks.
trekker670 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 05:25 PM   #927
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

I think people today equate film grain with video noise. Noise isn't supposed to be there; grain is. Again, the grain is physically part of the picture; by trying to get rid of it you manipulate the picture and lose detail.

Grain is good.
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 06:29 PM   #928
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Artificial sharpening and DNR is generally BAD. If used extremely sparingly, it could be a useful tool, but more times than not, it is used to the extreme. When heavy DNR and edge enhancement are used on a catalog title, it is because the distributor is attempting to hide the fact that a substandard master has been used. It's cheaper and faster to dust off an old master (ones previously used for cable and DVD) and heavily process it instead of doing a full remaster. Examples:

Predator: http://images3.static-bluray.com/rev...84_2_1080p.jpg

Star Trek VI: http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...k/e3291f42.png

Gladiator: http://i.imgur.com/JlBsD.png (thankfully this one was so bad that Universal did a remaster anyway)

Last edited by jimbotron; December 4 2013 at 06:53 PM.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 07:14 PM   #929
GameOn
Lieutenant Commander
 
GameOn's Avatar
 
Location: UK
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Admiral Bear wrote: View Post
Yes, hooked up via HDMI. My TV does have a dynamic setting. It's horrible, and I never use it. I generally use the "standard" setting which I tweak if I need to. Generally, I have the colour fairly low, contrast and brightness about mid range, the sharpness set to max (it's fine with no grain on broadcast HD), and the DNR mid to high in the advanced settings.

I've been turning the sharpness down to just over the mid range during the worst of the TNG grain, mainly to see what difference it makes. It does get rid of the grain, but then with shots with no grain, the picture looks like it's been DNRd to hell. I'll try taking the DNR off completely, but I don't think it will make that much of a difference in conjunction with lowering the sharpness. In my mind, I'm lowering the sharpness only to then increase the sharpness (and grain) by taking the DNR off.
Turn the sharpness, DNR and any other settings off completely so that you get the truest representation of the image without any "enhancements". Broadcast TV is usually too heavily compressed to preserve the original film grain and clarity of the image and any grain/noise that people see is usually due to compression artefacts.
GameOn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 09:34 PM   #930
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Artificial sharpening and DNR is generally BAD. If used extremely sparingly, it could be a useful tool, but more times than not, it is used to the extreme. When heavy DNR and edge enhancement are used on a catalog title, it is because the distributor is attempting to hide the fact that a substandard master has been used.
I wonder, though, how much of their decision to use DNR is related to just providing the public what the public thinks it wants -- a grain-free picture.
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
remastered, tng season 4 blu-ray

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:32 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.