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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old May 8 2013, 12:27 AM   #31
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Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

Timo wrote: View Post
Probably so. But similar pulses might collapse UFP antimatter containment fields; it's not a vulnerability specific to the Romulan design.

Interestingly, when the Breen hit the Axis of Alpha fleet with the energy-damping weapon at Chin'toka, ships went dark and motionless. They did not explode immediately out of containment failure, regardless of whether they had UFP, Klingon or Romulan power systems...

Granted, the ships didn't lose all power: we saw internal lighting (at least the emergency sort) work just fine. Nor did hearts stop beating or brains stop thinking. Clearly, the weapon only affected certain types of power flow, and the starship powerplant protection systems probably either had an inherently resilient type of power arrangement, or were built with multiple redundant power sources of which at least one was resilient to the Breen weapon.

Timo Saloniemi
I got the impression that the Breen energy dissipator was designed not to completely deprive a starship of all power, as I'd imagine they'd like to capture the ship and/or crew. The Breen have been known to use slave labor in certain instances.
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Old May 8 2013, 09:47 AM   #32
Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

The Breen have been given some pretty conflicting attributes in their backstory, but this much seems to be nicely supported, yes.

In "Hero Worship", the Breen are said to practice boarding attacks. In "Indiscretion", we learn of their slave-capturing antics. The energy weapon is a pretty natural continuation of that story, although one wonders why this ideal piracy weapon never became infamous amongst its victims before the big war. Would the Breen have had enough discipline not to use it for piracy? They certainly didn't completely silence all their victims, as some rumors of their habits and methods circulated in the UFP.

This would suggest the weapon was a new addition to the Breen arsenal of piracy and boarding attacks in the late stages of the Dominion War...

I wonder if any of the ships at Chin'toka were boarded and captured?

Timo Saloniemi
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Old May 8 2013, 10:10 PM   #33
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Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

^Quite questionable is also, why was everybody so surprised by the technology.

After all, Starfleet already encountered similar technology in the past: Tholians (2150s mirror and 25th century prime -> so 23rd prime could already have it), Whale Probe (23rd century) and Menthar (aceton assimilators in 24th century).

Although these could be as different as Cloaking technologies are: Suliban, Xyrilians, Romulan, Klingon, Starfleet ...
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Old May 9 2013, 09:44 AM   #34
Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

Good point. It might also be that the Federation doesn't give its regular opponents quite as much credit as it gives certain upper league cultures and entities. The Menthar trap was much slower and depended on a whole asteroid field full of equipment, while the Whale Probe simply was a superentity, possibly not worth escalating against in a cost-benefit analysis even when the benefit side includes survival of your civilization...

There are surprising superweapons in the arsenals of the regular foes, though. Klingons can, if given a few days of absolute freedom to prepare, make a planet's atmosphere go up in flames. Romulans have this AQS power technology. Son'a have subspace weapons... It probably pays to train for no-win scenarios!

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Old May 10 2013, 01:32 AM   #35
Lee Enfield
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Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

I'd like to add, that the Breen weapon might be a progression to a prior existing technology.
The Breen might not have been able to refine their technology until they teamed up with the Dominion. The first model might have been of a more supportive nature to pirate operations - perhaps to cripple some of the secondary energy systems to gain access to the ships transporters ...
Starfleet Security Systems(TM)("To your polished new Starship we might even add a fith failure safety.") might have been to advanced to effectively have been sobotaged by the first model. Thus, Starfleet Intelligence didn't care much.
...till the Dominion came.

But, with all we know, Starfleet Intelligence might have undertaken investigation in all the known cases. Just off-screen.
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Old May 11 2013, 08:43 PM   #36
Rear Admiral
Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

Just hope the Romulans don't come across a certain ships artificial sigularity.

"Hmm..this says 'Event Horizon'"
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Old May 21 2013, 07:30 PM   #37
137th Gebirg
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Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

Tribble puncher wrote: View Post
publiusr wrote: View Post
They didn't even seem to have an impulse drive.
Probert admitted that when he designed the ship he'd mistakenly forgot to include Impulse engines. I can't remember where I read that, it was years ago.
That's okay. Neither does the Nebula.
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Old May 21 2013, 07:48 PM   #38
Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

At least all Nebula models and renderings have nozzles in the proper places, even if they are on the small side and aren't always lit...

Timo Saloniemi
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Old May 22 2013, 08:51 AM   #39
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Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

Tribble puncher wrote: View Post
publiusr wrote: View Post
They didn't even seem to have an impulse drive.
Probert admitted that when he designed the ship he'd mistakenly forgot to include Impulse engines. I can't remember where I read that, it was years ago.
Might've read me posting it. Andy once told me he never had time to finish all the elevations of the ship, so he never drew the aft view and when Greg Jein built the model and didn't think to add impulse engines. They were supposed to be in a vertical slot on the back end, if I recall what Andy told me.

The one thing Andy DID forget was a nav deflector on the Ferengi ship. He did put one on the Warbird, even though the VXF people insisted on using it as a weapon.
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Last edited by Maurice; May 22 2013 at 09:27 AM.
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Old May 22 2013, 10:15 AM   #40
Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

...Creating a fancy sort of consistency. Cardassian ships also fire their main guns from the deflector centerpoint of their (this time Sternbach-designed) capital ships. Which shouldn't be a wonder, considering how often our Starfleet heroes utilize the deflector as a weapon!

It does make intuitive sense that this device would be a power or range booster for whatever is fired from its center; perhaps some VFX people even bought into the backstage speculation that death rays don't work at warp, and thought that since the deflector does, the combination would be advantageous.

Sometimes it's a good thing that alien starships have alien features, too; I would have been quite happy with a ship that doesn't fire its beams from obvious beam emitters. Sternbach designed the Cardassian ship with identifiable if alien weapons emitter pyramids, some of which eventually did see use in "Caretaker" and the like. The Romulan vessel never did fire anything from the dome-like features Probert put in for the purpose, now did it?

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Old May 24 2013, 06:14 PM   #41
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Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

The interesting thing about the discussion of the D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability is the only canon source is the discussion of it maximum warp speed in the "The Tin Man"-when it is shown moving in anything besides a straight line -usually in a turning away from the Enterprise it does not appear sluggish at all. (sadly the realities of FX and ship model limitation) -mean it appears in some DS9 shots to be just moving in a straight line or still
Its Maneuverability became a hot topic in the Star Trek Line forums as its games statistics appeared to agree with its a slug-but what i saw was how much "myth" comes from each subjective take on a vessels capabilities from seconds or more footage from a battle scene -It can be staggering to read
One poster explained to new player that the D'Deridex had a weak frame because it took hits from the Chin'toka orbital platforms -but every other ship Fed or Klingon took hits and faired no better.
I would love if they put a D'Deridex Warbird tech manual out to answer this.
Being a fan of the Ship -i have found it odd that so many are confused or have issue over its large central empty area. To me it said "alien" design that simple why would they conform to our design (Human) why cannot form be over function-if they can practice AQS tech - I can accept a ship design that is different in layout.
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Old May 25 2013, 09:37 PM   #42
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Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

First post, here, but I'd like to weigh in on this.

I should say, first thing off, I'm sorry but I don't know the answer to the main question: D'deridex class maneuverability compared to Galaxy class at impulse. No clue, in fact.

But the question of this ships' Artificial Quantum Singularity (AQS) power supply came up and I'd like to address it, with y'all's indulgence.... See, I had a long conversation on the Birth-of-the-Federations-2 forums about this subject in 2005 and I've been thinking about it ever since. I've figured out some more cool stuff on the subject since then that I'd like to share....

"Timescape" demonstrated that an AQS is not like a Natural Black Hole (NBH) because if it were, the alien's offspring wouldn't have had any problems and the story would stops making sense. This is really the only clue we have for testing any Romulan AQS model for accuracy.

My first thoughts about getting energy from an AQS was from an accretion disk and the resultant polar jets. If your singularity spins, it would have enough gravitational influence to literally pull space-time around it. Anything that's traveling through that spinning space-time will also be pulled into orbit around singularity. This forces the material into a disk, an "accretion disk". As material orbits, it rubs against the material orbiting just a little closer and just a little further from the singularity. The friction from this rubbing heats things up and the friction increases as the orbits get closer in. So much so, that Hydrogen fuses into Helium, which then fuses into Carbon, etc, all the way up to Iron, then further into the transuranics --this, even though fusion of elements heavier than Iron takes more energy than it gives off. Indeed, I read that an atom may give up as much as half its mass in energy in this process of fusion and frictional heating.

Any atom that absorbs enough of this released energy to escape the accretion disk would then follow the singularity's magnetic field lines to the poles where it would have a high probability of bouncing off --like a magnetic mirror-- creating high-velocity jets out the poles. (It's even thought that over the course of a NBHs lifetime, this process might introduce a considerable amount of heavier-than-helium elements into the universe, enough to be comparable to the amount given off by supernovae.)

This is the process proposed by Rick Sternbach in his article on getting energy from an AQS. But there are some definite problems to this proposal.

First off, if you're only 50% of the mass you throw in comes out as energy, the other 50% is feeding the singularity's mass, making it harder to control and steadily reducing the maneuverability of you ship.

Second, increasing or decreasing energy output would take time and planning. The material would have to travel from the matter injectors and deeply to accretion disk before it made any difference in energy output. When you take into account relativistic effects, this might take quite some time indeed. Depending on the geometry of the reactor, this could mean unexpected emergency power would have to come from somewhere else, as the AQS would need time to ramp up power.

Thirdly, and most significantly, a NBH small enough to be mobile --less than a million tonnes-- would want to evaporate so quickly from hawkings radiation as to be absurd: a 1e9 kg NBH evaporates in 84 nanoseconds if left to itself. (Oddly enough, it starts with a temperature of only 835 kelvin... Assuming I calculated properly.) To keep it form exploding, you would have to exert control over that singularity on the order of picoseconds! (pico = 1e-12) I don't know enough to do the calculations but I'd guess --due to the second problem-- this might be close to impossible. (I could be very wrong on that account.)

Again, the one thing we know about an AQS is that it's not like a NBH. So what is it like?

My second guess for extracting power from an artificial singularity, and the one I prefer, is that an AQS would be more accurately called an Artificial Event Horizon. I see it working like this: You have a spherical array of powerful gravity emitters focused to a point. (These emitters would be something like deflectors but physically smaller and specially designed for the task.) When they're turned on, the array creates an artificial event horizon whose radius can be made smaller or larger regardless of how much mass you have inside. ("Regardless" is a relative term, of course; relative to the power of the emitters.) From there, you would throw in mass and it would be saved within the event horizon to be extracted later via hawkings radiation. If you wanted more energy from the AQS, you make the event horizon smaller, increasing hawkings radiation; for less power, make the horizon larger. And the beauty of it is that the mass-to-energy conversion ratio is 100%, just like M/AM! However much mass you put in, 100% becomes available as collectible energy via hawkings radiation...eventually.

Of course, this set up does beg a question: What would happen if such an AQS were run without any mass within? Could you extract energy directly from vacuum energy? Naturally, I don't know but I suspect the answer is, "no". See, the energy of hawkings radiation is stolen from the mass of the singularity. If there's no mass within, the singularity would gain negative mass and this negative mass would eventually overcome the gravity projectors. How quickly "eventually" would arrive is up for debate, at least until someone familiar with general relativity could do the calculations. Still, I suspect it would happen pretty quickly. None the less, it brings up the possibility of running the AQS on empty for a while until you can stop off somewhere and fill the tank.

(Hrm... Then again, maybe not. If the singularity has a negative mass then wouldn't the particles of the hawkings radiation also have negative mass? If so, this would surely badly interfere with the gravity emitters and muddle the works. Opens up interesting possibilities, though... Oh, and antimatter, as it's currently understood, does not have negative mass.)

Oh, yeah! And the other advantage of this Artificial Event Horizon model of the AQS is that it can take any kind of mass and turn it into energy! You could throw in asteroids, gas-giant atmosphere or humanoids --though probably not dark matter-- and out would come hawkings radiation, ready for use. This means an AQS powered vessel needs very little infrastructure to keep itself going --no antimatter barges to rendezvous with, for example. And if the vessel was stocked with industrial replicators, there'd be even less need for supporting infrastructure. Indeed, this is one explanation for the huge enclosed area within the D'deridex: a place for the industrial replication of a smaller, possibly fusion powered vessels! Or a small space station! Or a colonial township which could then be beamed into place! Or terraforming infrastructure, likewise with beamed installation! Such a vessel could be a jack-of-all trades, capable of so very, very much!

And, finally, to wrap it up, an artificial event horizon would probably be a completely different environment than a natural one, giving the Timescape alien babys developmental issues.

Ok. That's my long, $0.02 post on AQS power generation.
Tell me what y'all think.
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Old May 26 2013, 03:19 PM   #43
The Librarian
Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

That's very similar to my own thinking, although I think your numbers for how quickly a million-ton mass evaporates are off. (The appendix to this paper has decay times and power outputs.) Hawking radiation does make a lot more sense than fiddling around with accretion discs, especially since you're going to get that radiation whether you want it or not. Trek certainly has the gravity manipulation capability to alter a black hole's event horizon, especially inside a confined space.
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Old May 26 2013, 09:05 PM   #44
Rear Admiral
Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

I actually kinda wish we had a small black hole a few thousand AUs out, to dump waste Warp a station that spins opposite to it or a magnetar and you have quite the dynamo.

A sphere surrounding a black hole would have "alchemy" poles where X-ray jets could hit lighter elements and transmute them intio heavier ones

If a sphere is too hard to build then a statite which rides the jet low enough not to be pushed away (yet high enough to not fall in would be more do-able)
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Old May 27 2013, 07:29 PM   #45
Re: D'deridex-class Warbird Maneuverability

Of course, Star Trek technology can do miracles with gravity. Having a strong "natural" source of gravitational attraction combined with a suitable artificial gravity machine might yield a compact perpetual motion machine easily enough, without any real-world concerns interfering.

Similarly, the technology can rather effortlessly manipulate faster-than-light objects, allowing various laws of nature to be broken at the event horizon for the user's considerable benefit.

Whether one really needs an AQS in addition to these miracle technologies is somewhat debatable, though.

Timo Saloniemi
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d'deridex, romulan warbird

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