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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.20%
A 161 21.47%
A- 101 13.47%
B+ 83 11.07%
B 59 7.87%
B- 27 3.60%
C+ 40 5.33%
C 38 5.07%
C- 25 3.33%
D+ 11 1.47%
D 13 1.73%
D- 10 1.33%
F 38 5.07%
Voters: 750. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 28 2013, 10:13 PM   #661
Chi'pok
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

@Mr. Laser Beam: I like this idea. I will think of it when I watch the movie. I just watched Space Seed last night and when they first board the Botany Bay and Khan's cryochamber is activated it starts to sputter. Scotty says it could be due to dust in the mechanism... makes sense to me...
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Old April 28 2013, 10:23 PM   #662
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
I think Khan as a pale, British white guy is kinda dumb.
It's been suggested that Harrison is one of the other Augments aboard the Botany Bay - one of those who, in the prime timeline, died because the sleep chambers weren't all working. If this is true, he probably took Khan's name as his own - assuming that in the Abramsverse, the real Khan was one of the ones who died (I'm not sure how that could have happened, although it is possible that when Section 31 found the ship, they accidentally killed the real Khan by monkeying around with the ship's systems before they figured it out).
Can't "Khan" be a title as well as a name? If so, then he could be someone who took the title but isn't Noonien Singh.
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Old April 28 2013, 10:24 PM   #663
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

^ That works. Noonien Singh would be the real Khan's actual name, and Khan was his title (as leader of the Augments). So if his Abramsverse counterpart died in cryosleep, and Harrison took over, naturally *he* is Khan.
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Old April 28 2013, 10:31 PM   #664
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ That works. Noonien Singh would be the real Khan's actual name, and Khan was his title (as leader of the Augments). So if his Abramsverse counterpart died in cryosleep, and Harrison took over, naturally *he* is Khan.
Or based on Spock Prime's information, decided to wake up a different Botany Bay augment. One that would seemingly be more willing to work with Starfleet.
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Old April 28 2013, 10:39 PM   #665
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I really do not give a fuck that Khan is a pale white guy, I have to be honest. Performance is more important than looking the part.
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Old April 28 2013, 10:44 PM   #666
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Phily B wrote: View Post
I really do not give a fuck that Khan is a pale white guy, I have to be honest. Performance is more important than looking the part.
Yes and no.

If a part is designed for certain characteristics, then you should be looking for actors that have those characteristics. If you decide Spock is a man, then you pretty much rule out female actors no matter how talented.

I'll wait and see who Cumberbatch is actually playing and how well he performs before making any determination if he was right for the role.
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Old April 28 2013, 11:05 PM   #667
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

BillJ wrote: View Post
Phily B wrote: View Post
I really do not give a fuck that Khan is a pale white guy, I have to be honest. Performance is more important than looking the part.
Yes and no.

If a part is designed for certain characteristics, then you should be looking for actors that have those characteristics. If you decide Spock is a man, then you pretty much rule out female actors no matter how talented.

I'll wait and see who Cumberbatch is actually playing and how well he performs before making any determination if he was right for the role.
Utterly tiresome.

By your reckoning, they got it right, they cast a man as Khan. A Mexican man was cast as someone from the sub-continent almost 50 years ago, they've cast a British guy based on the FACT that Bad Robot thought he was the best bloke for the job.

Khan is a concept, what he represents is a notion of a particular type of person with a particular backstory. Obviously, Desilu should have had the foresight to think that he might be recast some 50 years later and called him Jones when he was written all those years ago so as to stop this incessant whining from grown men.

I suppose I've misunderstood this again.

Only in the same vein as some of you utterly miss the point, like a poor marksman.....
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Old April 28 2013, 11:10 PM   #668
Flake
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Do we find out if this Khan states that he has altered his appearance or simply assumed the title of 'Khan' during the movie? Or does Spock call up a historical computer file and sees an image of CumberKhan?
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Old April 28 2013, 11:14 PM   #669
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Phily B wrote: View Post
I really do not give a fuck that Khan is a pale white guy, I have to be honest. Performance is more important than looking the part.
Yep, this.
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Old April 28 2013, 11:18 PM   #670
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Deck 1 - Bridge wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Phily B wrote: View Post
I really do not give a fuck that Khan is a pale white guy, I have to be honest. Performance is more important than looking the part.
Yes and no.

If a part is designed for certain characteristics, then you should be looking for actors that have those characteristics. If you decide Spock is a man, then you pretty much rule out female actors no matter how talented.

I'll wait and see who Cumberbatch is actually playing and how well he performs before making any determination if he was right for the role.
Utterly tiresome.

By your reckoning, they got it right, they cast a man as Khan. A Mexican man was cast as someone from the sub-continent almost 50 years ago, they've cast a British guy based on the FACT that Bad Robot thought he was the best bloke for the job.

Khan is a concept, what he represents is a notion of a particular type of person with a particular backstory. Obviously, Desilu should have had the foresight to think that he might be recast some 50 years later and called him Jones when he was written all those years ago so as to stop this incessant whining from grown men.

I suppose I've misunderstood this again.

Only in the same vein as some of you utterly miss the point, like a poor marksman.....
Jones? WTF was I thinking?

This would clearly limit the casting of such a character to a particular street in the western suburbs of Cardiff where the correct type of Jones lives.

Jones the Baker would be all wrong, it needs to be Jones the Sweep.

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Old April 28 2013, 11:33 PM   #671
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Deck 1 - Bridge wrote: View Post
By your reckoning, they got it right, they cast a man as Khan. A Mexican man was cast as someone from the sub-continent almost 50 years ago, they've cast a British guy based on the FACT that Bad Robot thought he was the best bloke for the job.
Which is why I said I'd wait and see how it turns out...

BillJ wrote:
I'll wait and see who Cumberbatch is actually playing and how well he performs before making any determination if he was right for the role.
Deck 1 - Bridge wrote: View Post

I suppose I've misunderstood this again.
Yes you have. But that's nothing new...
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Old April 28 2013, 11:33 PM   #672
Lord Garth, FOI
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
I think Khan as a pale, British white guy is kinda dumb.
It's been suggested that Harrison is one of the other Augments aboard the Botany Bay - one of those who, in the prime timeline, died because the sleep chambers weren't all working. If this is true, he probably took Khan's name as his own - assuming that in the Abramsverse, the real Khan was one of the ones who died (I'm not sure how that could have happened, although it is possible that when Section 31 found the ship, they accidentally killed the real Khan by monkeying around with the ship's systems before they figured it out).
Clever but no, he's Khan Noonian Sing
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Old April 28 2013, 11:41 PM   #673
GMDreia
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Just from the artistic angle, not the social justice angle:

I was very, very skeptical until I'd seen all of the clips/trailers. Learning he was Khan after that, didnt bother me. But it would have bothered me before.

Because whoever Cumberbatch is playing is absolutely chilling, and I'm willing to try to take him on his own merits. And bringing in the issues of eugenics and Section 31 makes this bigger than just your "typical angry-bad-dude-vs-the-good-dudes" story that we keep seeing and are tired of.

The other option would have been to not use Khan at all. If they got someone who didnt have plausible deniability as not being Khan - we all would've figured out who he was and then would've been all "but is he Khan enough". This way, we get to take this character on his own merits without comparing him to Khan Prime.

And from what I know of the story, having it be anyone else would've meant an entirely different story.

I really love this idea - I even more love the idea that he's still out there and is a bit more antihero than classic villain. Plus, the Bond Villain type they have him written as, is (to me) how a Khan type would be written nowadays. Our concept of the megalomaniac has changed, and warfare has changed. Leaving aside the issue of being a white guy, he fits more with Greg Cox's portrayal of Khan as having risen to power via subterfuge and influence. The books really captured his idealism in ways that don't entirely come through in the series or WOK.

There are other baddies out there who are within Starfleet, and there are bad guys who may be good guys in this universe (like Garth, Tracy, etc). We now have more of a chance to see them and tread new ground now that Khan is out of the way.

Khan was always going to be the elephant in the room.
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Last edited by GMDreia; April 28 2013 at 11:52 PM.
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Old April 29 2013, 12:13 AM   #674
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

section9 wrote: View Post
My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
section9 wrote: View Post
Expect this controversy to start growing over the next week. I'm not sure how big it will get...
Trivial.
You'd be surprised. I happen to agree with you, but there are people who are somewhat put off by this who don't get why Cumby was cast in the first place.
Nerds can fuss over whatever they like; it's not going to affect the public acceptance of the movie or its success one whit.
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Old April 29 2013, 12:20 AM   #675
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

It's probably been mentioned, but perhaps they had access to all the original treatments and drafts of "Space Seed" when preparing the script. The use of the name 'John Harrison' might have evolved just from reading Memory Alpha's background on the episode.

Memory Alpha wrote:
In writer Carey Wilber's original treatment, the Khan character is a Nordic superman named Harold Erricsen. This evolved in the first draft, where the character first introduces himself as John Ericssen, but is later revealed to be Ragnar Thorwald, who was involved in "the First World Tyranny".
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