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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.33%
A 161 21.61%
A- 100 13.42%
B+ 82 11.01%
B 58 7.79%
B- 27 3.62%
C+ 40 5.37%
C 38 5.10%
C- 25 3.36%
D+ 11 1.48%
D 13 1.74%
D- 10 1.34%
F 36 4.83%
Voters: 745. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 1 2013, 01:14 PM   #4441
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
throwback wrote: View Post
I suppose that argument could work, if the nature of the child's disease was explained.
You wanted to know which disease she had specifically ? What difference would that make ?
None whatsoever.
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Old July 1 2013, 02:01 PM   #4442
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

In the absence of a precise explanation of the exact disease, I just assumed she had a particularly nasty head cold, and her father was just really really committed to his child's well being.
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Old July 1 2013, 02:11 PM   #4443
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
throwback wrote: View Post
I suppose that argument could work, if the nature of the child's disease was explained.
You wanted to know which disease she had specifically ? What difference would that make ?
None, as Kirk was brought BACK FROM THE DEAD, rendering the poorly kid plot point entirely redundant. You could lose that aspect and lose nothing as McCoy injects the tribble in an entirely unrelated scene.

If it had been brought up as a reason as to why McCoy decided to inject the tribble with Khan's blood it would have been pretty clever but as it stands you have one scene which sets up nothing and another which comes out of nowhere.

It does not logically follow that if Khan can save a poorly child he can resurrect the dead.
That scene was for the audience. The power of his blood is telling us right up front that there's something different about Harrison. The scene also shows just what kind of cold, hard, manipulative bastard Harrison is. Even the girl who was saved will be affected by Harrison. She was a pawn, too. Think she'll have a care-free life going into her old age carrying the memory of what her father did to save her?

As far as it not being logical that Harrion's blood can save Kirk just because it saved the girl, this has been hashed over a lot on these boards, but a world of transporters, warp speed, and all kinds of other pseudo-science is far less believable when you think about it than invoking a theory from cryonics that says as long as the brain has not completely lost its ability to function, a "dead" person can be resuscitated. McCoy told Kirk he wasn't "that" dead. Maybe that was only half a joke.
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Old July 1 2013, 02:18 PM   #4444
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Besides, if Khan's blood brought back the Tribble (as McCoy said, his blood has regenerative capabilities beyond anything he'd seen before) it is possible that it would save a 'slightly dead' Kirk. A dubious possibility, but a possibility nonetheless.
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Old July 1 2013, 02:20 PM   #4445
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Franklin wrote: View Post
*snip*
In the next movie, Kirk can turn into a tiger. Perfectly reasonable considring all the psuedo-science in Trek. Also, Khan's blood saving some girl has perfectly set up that ability.
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Old July 1 2013, 02:29 PM   #4446
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Kolinahr wrote: View Post
Besides, if Khan's blood brought back the Tribble (as McCoy said, his blood has regenerative capabilities beyond anything he'd seen before) it is possible that it would save a 'slightly dead' Kirk. A dubious possibility, but a possibility nonetheless.
Yes, but the point is WHY McCoy decided to inject the tribble with the blood in the first place. Having McCoy research Khan / Harrison and finding some link between him and the girl at the start would have been reason enough. It would have been a logical progression of the story thread and would have given McCoy something to do, besides getting his arm trapped in a torpedo.
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Old July 1 2013, 02:38 PM   #4447
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
*snip*
In the next movie, Kirk can turn into a tiger. Perfectly reasonable considring all the psuedo-science in Trek. Also, Khan's blood saving some girl has perfectly set up that ability.
Yes. After all, we saw the crew of Enterprise-D devolve into animals ("Genesis"), including Barclay becoming a spider. Data came up with a retro-virus that cured them all.

So, there have been far sillier things in Trek than blood that can restore health and life to someone.

It's just a matter of where one draws the line of "silly." Sobeit.
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Old July 1 2013, 02:41 PM   #4448
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Cool. Can't wait!
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Old July 1 2013, 02:54 PM   #4449
Kolinahr
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Kolinahr wrote: View Post
Besides, if Khan's blood brought back the Tribble (as McCoy said, his blood has regenerative capabilities beyond anything he'd seen before) it is possible that it would save a 'slightly dead' Kirk. A dubious possibility, but a possibility nonetheless.
Yes, but the point is WHY McCoy decided to inject the tribble with the blood in the first place. Having McCoy research Khan / Harrison and finding some link between him and the girl at the start would have been reason enough. It would have been a logical progression of the story thread and would have given McCoy something to do, besides getting his arm trapped in a torpedo.
Oh, okay. Now I understand. As others have pointed out though, weirder things have happened in Trek-verse. Besides, what else would McCoy be keeping a Tribble for anyway if not experimentation?
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Old July 1 2013, 06:23 PM   #4450
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
throwback wrote: View Post
I suppose that argument could work, if the nature of the child's disease was explained.
You wanted to know which disease she had specifically ? What difference would that make ?
None, as Kirk was brought BACK FROM THE DEAD, rendering the poorly kid plot point entirely redundant. You could lose that aspect and lose nothing as McCoy injects the tribble in an entirely unrelated scene.

If it had been brought up as a reason as to why McCoy decided to inject the tribble with Khan's blood it would have been pretty clever but as it stands you have one scene which sets up nothing and another which comes out of nowhere.

It does not logically follow that if Khan can save a poorly child he can resurrect the dead.
I may be mistaken here but at least in one episode of TNG, Crusher was instructed to try to 'revive' someone who was dead. In my recollection she was too late. But the inference there was that it was possible. And of course Neelix was revived from being dead in VOY. And Scotty twice in TOS.
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Old July 1 2013, 06:48 PM   #4451
Belz...
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Shazam! wrote: View Post
None, as Kirk was brought BACK FROM THE DEAD, rendering the poorly kid plot point entirely redundant.
If you think set-up scenes are redundant, I have a thing or two to tell you about narratives.
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Old July 1 2013, 11:10 PM   #4452
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I may be mistaken here but at least in one episode of TNG, Crusher was instructed to try to 'revive' someone who was dead. In my recollection she was too late. But the inference there was that it was possible. And of course Neelix was revived from being dead in VOY. And Scotty twice in TOS
Great! None of that has anything to do with what I was saying though.
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Old July 1 2013, 11:15 PM   #4453
Shazam!
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
If you think set-up scenes are redundant, I have a thing or two to tell you about narratives.
It's not a set-up scene if you set-up one thing and then do an entirely different thing later on.

Last edited by Shazam!; July 1 2013 at 11:47 PM.
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Old July 1 2013, 11:42 PM   #4454
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I've been mulling it over and trying to understand a bit more why I felt so disappointed with STID and I've come to realise how one-sided its approach was to the only topic of social commentary it addressed; the war on terror. It's this whole war on terror topic which gives STID its apparent depth, insight and food for thought. If anything STID comes over as almost a subtle endorsement of the war on terror.

It comes down to the consequences (or lack of you) you see. After everything that happened in Qo'noS I'm surprised the Klingons didn't just declare war on the Federation. They would have all the reasons: a Starfleet ship trespasses in their territory, Klingon warriors/soldiers killed and so forth. They could have slipped in a scene about how a war nearly started or even a war has happened and that incident in Qo'noS played a large part in starting it. It would have been a very nice wrap-up to the consequences and magnitude of what happened, but STID tossed this aside.

Little or large, it is an omission, and omission which implies that it's okay to violate a state or nation's territory to catch the bad guys. I mean for a man of principles, it really bugs me that Kirk was so gungho about the mission to capture/eliminate Khan in the first place. It's all about shear gut instinct and it is hard to address principles when they are so detached from logic or reason. For instance you have Spock who wants to follow by the book, and yet he goes along with this dubious mission. Of course all of that is eclipsed by Spock beating up Khan.

STID is all about emotion, that takes precedent over everything else. Logic, plausibility, continuity and motives be damned! That's why things feel so forced and clumsy, it's why Kirk had to weep when Pike died as if Pike was some sort of family figure, why Spock had to go utterly ballistic and why Khan had to crash the Vengeance into San Francisco because... ? It's like the film is trying to beat you into submission with non-stop action, breakneck pace and heart-throbbing emotion. STID worked best in these scenes where it became analytical and was presenting a situation (without force-feeding it down the viewer's throat): Khan revealing his identity to Kirk, Admiral Marcus warmongering aims, Kirk and Pike in the bar, and of course Spock talking about why he maintains this emotional distance. The last scene was the only scene where I was rather moved, it was dignified if you know what I mean. I wish STID had more moments like that I really do, indeed it was probably the only actual bit of character development in the film that did not feel absurd.
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Old July 1 2013, 11:48 PM   #4455
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Ln X wrote: View Post

STID is all about emotion, that takes precedent over everything else.
This is exactly why the movie is great. Humans acting like humans (this happened quite a bit in TOS).

And the Klingons have absolutely no proof that Starfleet violated their territory. The Enterprise is still in Federation space and the ship nor personnel used in the Kronos mission can be tied back to them.
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