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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 139 19.36%
A 157 21.87%
A- 98 13.65%
B+ 78 10.86%
B 58 8.08%
B- 27 3.76%
C+ 38 5.29%
C 37 5.15%
C- 23 3.20%
D+ 11 1.53%
D 13 1.81%
D- 6 0.84%
F 33 4.60%
Voters: 718. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 31 2013, 12:34 PM   #3946
Cyrus
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Finally saw the movie this week. While Cumberbatch gave a good performance I couldn't quite buy him as Khan. The scene where he revealed his identify wasn't very dramatic. I am sure I would have enjoyed it more if I hadn't been spoiled about it, but still.

Despite that I loved the movie. Probably my favorite of all the Trek movies.
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Old May 31 2013, 01:52 PM   #3947
Mad Jack Wolfe
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Squiggy wrote: View Post
At least you're handling the news like an adult.
Indeed, I didn't say goat-felching clit-snorters once, so that's definitely me being polite and mature about it.
Thank you! I needed a good laugh this morning!
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Old May 31 2013, 03:04 PM   #3948
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

throwback wrote: View Post
Well, it's the uncritical and adoring fans like Admiral Buzzkill...
The fact that I consider most of your attempted criticisms trivial and wrong-headed doesn't mean that I'm "uncritical." It means that I have different tastes.

It's true that I tend to criticize things that I dislike more often than nitpick something that I'm enjoying.
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Old May 31 2013, 05:35 PM   #3949
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Belz... wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
Spock advocated killing Nero. Kirk not only agreed but did so with a grin. Suddenly (6 months movie time) they're all concerned about killing someone without trial.
No, Spock advocated not rescuing Nero. And the magnitude of the two villains' crimes are a bit different, wouldn't you say ?
Your ship is compromised. You're too close to the singularity to survive without assistance which we are willing to provide.

Captain, what are you doing?

You show them compassion, may be the only way to earn peace with Romulus. It's logic Spock, thought you'd like that.

No, not really. Not this time.
Spock is willing to forgo the possibility of peace with the Romulans because he personally wants vengeance.


At what point do we toss aside the right to a trial then? Where's your dividing line? If you start carving out exception to fundamental rights then you're eroding them bit by bit. Either the right to a trial exists or it does not.

Spock specifically states that the right to a trial ONLY exists if the accused is a citizen of the Federation. Apparently he was totally within the law by what he did in ST09, much like the drone strikes are now. Americans are not to be targeted by drones, regardless of their connections with or actions involving terrorist activities while non-Americans are fair targets even if they lead to the death of uninvolved civilians (the so called collateral damage). That's the message that's contained in SRID when they state that the right to a trial only applies to Federation citizens.
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Old May 31 2013, 05:44 PM   #3950
Belz...
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Spock is willing to forgo the possibility of peace with the Romulans because he personally wants vengeance.
Peace with the Romulans ? Nero is a rogue from the future bent on genocide.

At what point do we toss aside the right to a trial then? Where's your dividing line?
Fiction.
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Old May 31 2013, 05:50 PM   #3951
CorporalCaptain
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Spock specifically states that the right to a trial ONLY exists if the accused is a citizen of the Federation.
Spock never stated that.
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Old May 31 2013, 05:51 PM   #3952
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
Spock advocated killing Nero. Kirk not only agreed but did so with a grin. Suddenly (6 months movie time) they're all concerned about killing someone without trial.
No, Spock advocated not rescuing Nero. And the magnitude of the two villains' crimes are a bit different, wouldn't you say ?
Your ship is compromised. You're too close to the singularity to survive without assistance which we are willing to provide.

Captain, what are you doing?

You show them compassion, may be the only way to earn peace with Romulus. It's logic Spock, thought you'd like that.

No, not really. Not this time.
Spock is willing to forgo the possibility of peace with the Romulans because he personally wants vengeance.


At what point do we toss aside the right to a trial then? Where's your dividing line? If you start carving out exception to fundamental rights then you're eroding them bit by bit. Either the right to a trial exists or it does not.

Spock specifically states that the right to a trial ONLY exists if the accused is a citizen of the Federation. Apparently he was totally within the law by what he did in ST09, much like the drone strikes are now. Americans are not to be targeted by drones, regardless of their connections with or actions involving terrorist activities while non-Americans are fair targets even if they lead to the death of uninvolved civilians (the so called collateral damage). That's the message that's contained in SRID when they state that the right to a trial only applies to Federation citizens.
Spock never states that ONLY Federation citizens have a right to a trial, he simply states that they do, without any exclusionary statement. I have plenty of problems with the final Nero scene in Trek 09, but your attempts to paint some sort of picture here just doesn't wash.

This is particularly true as the writers of Trek 09 have stated on more than one occasion that the scene did not play out very clearly and that their intent was to demonstrate that Nero could not be allowed to transit through the black hole on the chance that he and his ship could emerge on the other side to run amok again. As there was a writers strike on during the production of Trek 09, they had no opportunity to fine-tune or rewrite scenes before or during production.

As such, it's far more instructive to view Spock's objections to the mission within the confines of STID itself, rather than a wrongheaded attempt to draw a parallel to modern events using a flawed scene that has been criticized by the writers themselves as inadequate.
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Old May 31 2013, 06:33 PM   #3953
Belz...
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

The Stig wrote: View Post
This is particularly true as the writers of Trek 09 have stated on more than one occasion that the scene did not play out very clearly and that their intent was to demonstrate that Nero could not be allowed to transit through the black hole on the chance that he and his ship could emerge on the other side to run amok again. As there was a writers strike on during the production of Trek 09, they had no opportunity to fine-tune or rewrite scenes before or during production.
Really ? I never read that, but it does clarify quite a bit about that scene.
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Old May 31 2013, 10:30 PM   #3954
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

http://www.trektoday.com/content/201...arkness-issue/

Ordered!
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Old June 1 2013, 02:35 AM   #3955
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

The Stig wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post

No, Spock advocated not rescuing Nero. And the magnitude of the two villains' crimes are a bit different, wouldn't you say ?
Your ship is compromised. You're too close to the singularity to survive without assistance which we are willing to provide.

Captain, what are you doing?

You show them compassion, may be the only way to earn peace with Romulus. It's logic Spock, thought you'd like that.

No, not really. Not this time.
Spock is willing to forgo the possibility of peace with the Romulans because he personally wants vengeance.


At what point do we toss aside the right to a trial then? Where's your dividing line? If you start carving out exception to fundamental rights then you're eroding them bit by bit. Either the right to a trial exists or it does not.

Spock specifically states that the right to a trial ONLY exists if the accused is a citizen of the Federation. Apparently he was totally within the law by what he did in ST09, much like the drone strikes are now. Americans are not to be targeted by drones, regardless of their connections with or actions involving terrorist activities while non-Americans are fair targets even if they lead to the death of uninvolved civilians (the so called collateral damage). That's the message that's contained in SRID when they state that the right to a trial only applies to Federation citizens.
Spock never states that ONLY Federation citizens have a right to a trial, he simply states that they do, without any exclusionary statement. I have plenty of problems with the final Nero scene in Trek 09, but your attempts to paint some sort of picture here just doesn't wash.

This is particularly true as the writers of Trek 09 have stated on more than one occasion that the scene did not play out very clearly and that their intent was to demonstrate that Nero could not be allowed to transit through the black hole on the chance that he and his ship could emerge on the other side to run amok again. As there was a writers strike on during the production of Trek 09, they had no opportunity to fine-tune or rewrite scenes before or during production.

As such, it's far more instructive to view Spock's objections to the mission within the confines of STID itself, rather than a wrongheaded attempt to draw a parallel to modern events using a flawed scene that has been criticized by the writers themselves as inadequate.
It would have been irresponsible of Kirk or Spock to allow Nero to escape where he had the ability and intention to destroy worlds. Maybe just maybe if you were certain you could capture Nero and be 110% certain he was disarmed you might try to save him. I even think the Romulan empire would have wanted him stopped before he turned his crazies on them. In TOS Spock advocates chasing down the Roulans so Starfleet not appear weak.

Spock's call for compassion for Khan is different IMO. Although it was pretty obvious he was guilty of some crime, its not certain which were from his own instigation and which were at the Admirals. And he wasn't at that time holding control over a planet killing weapon.
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Old June 1 2013, 03:02 AM   #3956
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Spock's call for compassion for Khan is different IMO.
Both Kirk and Spock may also now regret extinguishing Nero the way they did, but have not expressed those feelings aloud.
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Old June 1 2013, 03:07 AM   #3957
CommishSleer
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Spock's call for compassion for Khan is different IMO.
Both Kirk and Spock may also now regret extinguishing Nero the way they did, but have not expressed those feelings aloud.
They shouldn't. It would have been irresponsible. OK OK IMO.

And they didn't extinguish Nero. He got pulled into a black hole.

In the end they barely made it themselves. They probably couldn't have even saved Nero and themselves if they tried.
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Old June 1 2013, 03:15 AM   #3958
Therin of Andor
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
They shouldn't. It would have been irresponsible. OK OK IMO.

And they didn't extinguish Nero. He got pulled into a black hole.

In the end they barely made it themselves. They probably couldn't have even saved Nero and themselves if they tried.
I know all that. I enjoyed the scene myself. It got a rousing cheer in the cinema on opening night. As the writers intended.

But it was a huge bone of contention for some fans on this site.
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Old June 1 2013, 05:23 AM   #3959
CommishSleer
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
They shouldn't. It would have been irresponsible. OK OK IMO.

And they didn't extinguish Nero. He got pulled into a black hole.

In the end they barely made it themselves. They probably couldn't have even saved Nero and themselves if they tried.
I know all that. I enjoyed the scene myself. It got a rousing cheer in the cinema on opening night. As the writers intended.

But it was a huge bone of contention for some fans on this site.
Lots of things annoyed me from ST09 and this was not one of them. I suppose that some people would give a pass to the things that concerned me.

Sometimes captains have to make the hard decisions, like Archer stranding that ship, like him cloning Trip and killing the clone (which I totally don't agree with) and even Picard had to make a hard decision once (in INS). Sometimes the good of the many outweighs the good of the one
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Old June 1 2013, 07:01 AM   #3960
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

The Stig wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post

No, Spock advocated not rescuing Nero. And the magnitude of the two villains' crimes are a bit different, wouldn't you say ?
Your ship is compromised. You're too close to the singularity to survive without assistance which we are willing to provide.

Captain, what are you doing?

You show them compassion, may be the only way to earn peace with Romulus. It's logic Spock, thought you'd like that.

No, not really. Not this time.
Spock is willing to forgo the possibility of peace with the Romulans because he personally wants vengeance.


At what point do we toss aside the right to a trial then? Where's your dividing line? If you start carving out exception to fundamental rights then you're eroding them bit by bit. Either the right to a trial exists or it does not.

Spock specifically states that the right to a trial ONLY exists if the accused is a citizen of the Federation. Apparently he was totally within the law by what he did in ST09, much like the drone strikes are now. Americans are not to be targeted by drones, regardless of their connections with or actions involving terrorist activities while non-Americans are fair targets even if they lead to the death of uninvolved civilians (the so called collateral damage). That's the message that's contained in SRID when they state that the right to a trial only applies to Federation citizens.
Spock never states that ONLY Federation citizens have a right to a trial, he simply states that they do, without any exclusionary statement. I have plenty of problems with the final Nero scene in Trek 09, but your attempts to paint some sort of picture here just doesn't wash.

This is particularly true as the writers of Trek 09 have stated on more than one occasion that the scene did not play out very clearly and that their intent was to demonstrate that Nero could not be allowed to transit through the black hole on the chance that he and his ship could emerge on the other side to run amok again. As there was a writers strike on during the production of Trek 09, they had no opportunity to fine-tune or rewrite scenes before or during production.

As such, it's far more instructive to view Spock's objections to the mission within the confines of STID itself, rather than a wrongheaded attempt to draw a parallel to modern events using a flawed scene that has been criticized by the writers themselves as inadequate.
The writers intent doesn't enter into it. Their intent is not what's on the screen. It was also the writers intent that they film a scene with Shatner. SHould we therefore assume that such a scene exists?

Spock may not have stated that only Federation citizens are entitled to a trial but he did specifically state it applying to Federation citizens. Why make the distinction if it's the right of everyone to face their accusers in a trial? Why not simply state that Starfleet officers are entitled to a trial? Or humans? Or males with brown hair and British accents? Why use the qualifier "Federation citizen"? The writers were trying to draw a parallel to the current drone war and in doing so made the case that it's wrong to target your own citizens but non-citizens are fair targets.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Spock's call for compassion for Khan is different IMO.
Both Kirk and Spock may also now regret extinguishing Nero the way they did, but have not expressed those feelings aloud.
Unlike Spock the audience are not telepaths. If he had a change of heart we should have seen it.

Kirk was prepared to rescue Nero and his crew and he took Spock's rejection of the offer as a chance to execute Nero. The ship was not going through a black hole. The black hole was going through the ship. It was being visibly crumpled and crushed. When it first appeared it came through basically undamaged and fully operational. There was no suggestion that Nero could escape the same way he arrived.

In both cases, the Kirk had a chance to kill his adversary and his target could not fight back. Nero on his ship as it's being destroyed and Harrison as a human being versus a spread of torpedos. In one case he followed through and in the other he didn't. We're told by Spock that the reason they should not kill Harrison was that he was a Federation citizen. That's what we have been presented with. They may be different movies but other plot elements carried over, Spock and Uhura's problems and Spock's explanation about the destruction of Vulcan for one and Pike's ongoing relationship with Kirk for another.

And the idea that a theatre of people would give up a rousing cheer over the execution of a foe that's been rendered helpless makes me wonder just what they feel. If these same people watched Balance of Terror would they be calling for Kirk to blow away the Romulan Commander? His actions could have started a war that could have lead to the loss of a lot more than just Vulcan.

We don't have to bring ourselves down to the level of those we're fighting.
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