RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,373
Posts: 5,504,204
Members: 25,126
Currently online: 399
Newest member: Ted Dave

TrekToday headlines

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

Rumor Mill: Saldana Gives Birth
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12

New Line of Anovos Enterprise Uniforms
By: T'Bonz on Dec 11


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.20%
A 161 21.47%
A- 101 13.47%
B+ 83 11.07%
B 59 7.87%
B- 27 3.60%
C+ 40 5.33%
C 38 5.07%
C- 25 3.33%
D+ 11 1.47%
D 13 1.73%
D- 10 1.33%
F 38 5.07%
Voters: 750. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 24 2013, 07:47 PM   #226
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Let's just put this in the "for what it's worth" category as long as the debate about the "proper" person to play Khan is going on.

Most Sikh males have Singh as their last name. So in "Space Seed", Noonien Singh would be his first and last name, and Khan would be his title. But I can't find any use of that title in Sikhism. The title came from the Mongols and was adopted as both a title and a surname among Muslims in central Asia (including India). It is not a Sikh or Hindu title or name.

So, the whole thing may be screwed up six ways to Tuesday in every aspect. We have a character who was a Sikh tyrant taking a Muslim title being played by a Mexican in TOS and by an Englishman in STID.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 07:47 PM   #227
KirkusOveractus
Captain
 
KirkusOveractus's Avatar
 
Location: Ambler, PA
Send a message via AIM to KirkusOveractus
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

...with Andrew McCarthy AS James T. Kirk and Jonathan Silverman AS Mr. Spock!

(is it bad that I remember those names?)
KirkusOveractus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 07:47 PM   #228
Cinema Geekly
Lieutenant Commander
 
Cinema Geekly's Avatar
 
View Cinema Geekly's Twitter Profile
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I think it has been covered here but JJ, Orci and Co. have a propensity for using the larger story of being unable to escape the inevitable no matter what universe you are in (see Fringe).

The WOK moments (in the way the makers of the film see the universe and/or multiverse) were inevitable, they happened before they will happen again, the changes to this universe could (and by all accounts in this movie did) happen differently.

I mean I'm sure it was cool to relive it and make it their own (like a cover song) but at the end of the day I am 100% convinced that it was really done as part of this over arching view the creators have about this universe and a lot of the other universes they have created.
Cinema Geekly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 07:52 PM   #229
SalvorHardin
Rear Admiral
 
SalvorHardin's Avatar
 
Location: Star's End
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

KirkusOveractus wrote: View Post
Xaios wrote: View Post
Turd Ferguson wrote: View Post
Trust me, they could have done A LOT WORSE. Just imagine:

Shia LaBeouf IS John Harrison

Channing Tatum IS John Harrison

Matthew McConaughey IS John Harrison

But, tonight, I'll sleep more soundly knowing that the role of Khan is in good hands

Edit to add: One more. Kal Penn IS John Harrison
Matthew Lillard IS John Harrison.
Keanu Reeves IS John Harrison, dude!
They could have even made him a woman.

Catherine Tate IS Joan Harrison.
__________________

SalvorHardin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 07:54 PM   #230
KirkusOveractus
Captain
 
KirkusOveractus's Avatar
 
Location: Ambler, PA
Send a message via AIM to KirkusOveractus
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Franklin wrote: View Post
Let's just put this in the "for what it's worth" category as long as the debate about the "proper" person to play Khan is going on.

Most Sikh males have Singh as their last name. So in "Space Seed", Noonien Singh would be his first and last name, and Khan would be his title. But I can't find any use of that title in Sikhism. The title came from the Mongols and was adopted as both a title and a surname among Muslims in central Asia (including India). It is not a Sikh or Hindu title or name.

So, the whole thing may be screwed up six ways to Tuesday in every aspect. We have a character who was a Sikh tyrant taking a Muslim title being played by a Mexican in TOS and by an Englishman in STID.
While you have the information here based in fact and history, the basics are that this was a fictional character from a television series.

Beyond that, in the fictional sense, the world in which Khan ruled could have had so many messed up customs and cultures by that point, even being that Khan was "ruler than more than a quarter" of Earth, he could have taken whatever titles he wanted - who would have disputed him?
KirkusOveractus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 08:01 PM   #231
Captrek
Rear Admiral
 
Captrek's Avatar
 
Location: second star to the right
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
I think it has been covered here but JJ, Orci and Co. have a propensity for using the larger story of being unable to escape the inevitable no matter what universe you are in (see Fringe).

The WOK moments (in the way the makers of the film see the universe and/or multiverse) were inevitable, they happened before they will happen again, the changes to this universe could (and by all accounts in this movie did) happen differently.

I mean I'm sure it was cool to relive it and make it their own (like a cover song) but at the end of the day I am 100% convinced that it was really done as part of this over arching view the creators have about this universe and a lot of the other universes they have created.
It's tough to blame Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman for bringing that idea to Trek. It goes back at least as far as Mirror, Mirror.
Captrek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 08:03 PM   #232
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

KirkusOveractus wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Let's just put this in the "for what it's worth" category as long as the debate about the "proper" person to play Khan is going on.

Most Sikh males have Singh as their last name. So in "Space Seed", Noonien Singh would be his first and last name, and Khan would be his title. But I can't find any use of that title in Sikhism. The title came from the Mongols and was adopted as both a title and a surname among Muslims in central Asia (including India). It is not a Sikh or Hindu title or name.

So, the whole thing may be screwed up six ways to Tuesday in every aspect. We have a character who was a Sikh tyrant taking a Muslim title being played by a Mexican in TOS and by an Englishman in STID.
While you have the information here based in fact and history, the basics are that this was a fictional character from a television series.

Beyond that, in the fictional sense, the world in which Khan ruled could have had so many messed up customs and cultures by that point, even being that Khan was "ruler than more than a quarter" of Earth, he could have taken whatever titles he wanted - who would have disputed him?
Oh to be sure, there are thousands of ways to rationalize the title in the Trekverse. It's not that big a deal.

However, out of universe, it does make me wonder about the choice of the title during the writing of "Space Seed". Was it a deliberate choice to mix them to show that chaos probably existed at the time, or that Singh chose it for political reasons, or was simply an accidental or careless mixing up of two different religions and cultures by the writers that made it all the way to shooting?
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 08:09 PM   #233
Flake
Commodore
 
Location: Manchester, UK
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

If/when we get another movie I would like to see the producers bring in a veteran from the TNG/DS9 days just to make sure they don't go too crazy because clearly they have got carried away here

TWOK is turning into the millstone around Star Treks neck. Better to ignore it and come up with something original. They could have quite easily made a new and self contained section 31 story if they wanted to but they just had to go back to 1982. I am still looking forward to it and I am glad I have seen the spoilers I have seen because I am now better prepared for it the shock has worn off
Flake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 08:41 PM   #234
section9
Commander
 
section9's Avatar
 
Location: Sunrise, Florida
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Art Vandelay wrote: View Post
I postulate that Trek can change, make money and be good storytelling at the same time.
I postulate that I can grow wings and fly to Mars.

I was just over at IMDB - the furor over Cumberbatch playing Khan is becoming preposterous enough that I think the Onion can get a video out of it now.
Gad, the people over IMDB who obsess about the appropriateness of Benedict playing Khan are basically jumped up AICN fanbois.

JJ's job is to make an entertaining movie with decent enough acting that is close enough to Trek that it will remain recognizably Trek AND put asses in seats.

The producers had a choice between Benedict and Del Toro, who they couldn't come to terms with for some reason. Now they probably could have gotten a really good Bollywood Leading Man to play Khan and the guy might have become an overnight hit here in the states. There are some really great Bollywood leading guys that could have played Khan right into the stratosphere. However, Benedict has this huge, built in worldwide fan base due to his body of work.

Trek fans and fanboys don't realize that the producers and Paramount need a return on their investment that beats the 2009 film.
__________________
"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it!" - Winston S. Churchill
section9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 08:41 PM   #235
Captrek
Rear Admiral
 
Captrek's Avatar
 
Location: second star to the right
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Flake wrote: View Post
TWOK is turning into the millstone around Star Treks neck. Better to ignore it and come up with something original.
TWOK became the millstone the moment the original cast signed off at the end of TUC. Every film since has centered on giving the heroes a Khan-like villain to battle. Nemesis was the most shameless in the pilfering, but it affected GEN, FC, INS, and IX as well.
Captrek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 08:45 PM   #236
Flake
Commodore
 
Location: Manchester, UK
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Captrek wrote: View Post
Flake wrote: View Post
TWOK is turning into the millstone around Star Treks neck. Better to ignore it and come up with something original.
TWOK became the millstone the moment the original cast signed off at the end of TUC. Every film since has centered on giving the heroes a Khan-like villain to battle. Nemesis was the most shameless in the pilfering, but it affected GEN, FC, INS, and IX as well.
Yes your right.

I think the screenwriters must assume they can do better but they don't realise that it is totally unnecessary to even try. Just concentrate on writing your story as if TWOK never existed..
Flake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 08:47 PM   #237
Roald
Commander
 
Location: Schiedam, the Netherlands
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

It may have been mentioned before, but can anyone confirm if either the term 'Section 31' or 'augment' is mentioned in the film..? And is there a reference to the Eugenics Wars being in the 1990's..?
Roald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 08:53 PM   #238
Lapis Exilis
Rear Admiral
 
Lapis Exilis's Avatar
 
Location: Underground
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Shon T'Hara wrote: View Post
There aren't a lot of starring roles for Indian actors in Hollywood. This was one of them.
The part's never been played by an Indian actor or by an actor who resembled an Indian.

For that matter Uhura's never been played by an actor who really looks African*, but white Americans tend to have rather generalized and inattentive notions about race and ethnicity to the extent they exist.


*I can't recall whether Uhura is canonically - that is, onscreen - African or whether that's just what's been said in supporting biographical material for the character. Sulu was eventually established to have been born in the United States (ST 4)
She was - and very early on. First aired episode "The Man Trap", Salt Vampire turns into sexy African man who speaks to Uhura in Swahili and she responds in kind and with delight. Between that and her name, it is at least circumstantial for a language expert) confirmation of her native land.

DarthTom wrote: View Post

Just curious. But were people this upset when Patrick Stewart was cast as a French Captain with a very distinct English accent?
People were far more upset about him being bald and not Captain Kirk than the whole Frenchman with English accent thing. It got remarked upon after people stopped tearing their hair, rending their clothes and wailing though.

ROBE wrote: View Post
If this was a complete reboot them a white Khan would be fine, however it is not.
So time travelling Romulans turned a three hundred year old Indian into a Northern European?

See - this is the problem with time travel hokum to try to hook the reboot to the old series. It always just results in a far more incoherent fictional universe than a clean restart would.
__________________
Don't try to win over the haters; you're not the jackass whisperer. - Scott Straten
Lapis Exilis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 08:56 PM   #239
aeriolewinters
Lieutenant
 
aeriolewinters's Avatar
 
Location: Balanga, Bataan, Philippines
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I don't know what to say about the Khan spoilers. But if this film is indeed intended for the Casual Fans who are looking forward to the new cast's adventures, but are still relatively new to the franchise, then I say the decision is fine. It's been 31 years since STII: The Wrath of Khan and that film timeless it might sound to us trekkies, It has aged alot.

I am disappointed at the sheer dislike this movie has received, even though spoilers don't reveal that much over how they execute the plot. But I am sure that people will complain about the pew pew fast-paced action and not really focus on the fine little details.

About Khan's ethnicity... Like most others have said, Khan's character has evolved from what was once an experiment on Selective Breeding in "Space Seed", to a Genetic Enhanced Augment in TWoK. Certainly an update would be nice. And besides, we haven't seen how Benedict Cumberbatch acts into the role. We have seen Snippets, but not all.

Which leads me to say: The spoilers have made me want to watch more, because I want to SEE the execution of the film. I don't care how much some hardcore fans cry "BETRAYAL" when the film is made with Casual Viewers in mind, which are the majority and...wait for it...

The Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

JJ Abrams' Star Trek has a tough task of trying to appease both the casuals and the hardcore trekkies. In the end of the day though... I think your general reaction to the spoiler is a magnification of what you really feel for his franchise.
aeriolewinters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 24 2013, 09:01 PM   #240
sttngfan1701d
Commodore
 
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Shon T'Hara wrote: View Post
There aren't a lot of starring roles for Indian actors in Hollywood. This was one of them.
The part's never been played by an Indian actor or by an actor who resembled an Indian.
It should've been this time. They had a second shot years later to get it right and they whitewashed it. That's my point. This isn't about grudgingly complaining about changes in the Star Trek universe. This is me complaining about how they approached the casting process. They got it wrong from the start, focusing on Latino guys first (continuing in the Montalban vein) and casting a white guy in the end, when the role in question was for an Indian.

Now, with that said, I have no problem with Benedict Cumberbatch as a person or an actor. He's generally great in everything he does. He will be great in this movie. The movie is filmed and released. If this was just "John Harrison" I wouldn't be complaining at all. But since it's Khan Noonien Singh, I'm disappointed an Indian actor didn't get a crack at it.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

Last edited by M'Sharak; April 24 2013 at 11:34 PM. Reason: quote tag repair
sttngfan1701d is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
benedict cumberbatch, grading & discussion, jj abrams

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:23 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.