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Old June 30 2013, 04:54 AM   #31
Charles Phipps
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

I hated the Deep Space Nine episodes except for Intendant Kira.

This, on the other hand, was pure fun.
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Old June 30 2013, 10:25 AM   #32
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

I think it was all downhill from Mirror Mirror which rocked.
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Old July 1 2013, 01:48 AM   #33
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

Just watched it recently. Definitely one of the best ENT episodes.
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Old July 1 2013, 01:52 AM   #34
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

Thanks for stopping by, Mike! Yes, this is a fantastic two part episode, and a highlight of ENT's (unfortunately) last season. Kudos to all involved, behind and in front of the camera.
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Old July 1 2013, 04:07 PM   #35
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

IaMD is still fantastic today. Mike, I know this was your baby and you when above and beyond in every aspect of this episodes production to get it as perfect as possible. I'm glad you got them to agree to make it a two parter so you could get the funds to really make the Defiant set look amazing.
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Old July 3 2013, 01:00 AM   #36
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

I first encountered ENT in reruns, so I was behind the times. That having been said...

"In a Mirror, Darkly" was the umpteenth attempt by the Berman sub-franchise to capitalize on the "alternative universe"/"alternate reality" trope, and, looking at these stories strictly on their plausibility, I would say that the only one of these that holds up is "Yesterday's Enterprise". None of the others ever made any sense. It's all "let's try tinkering with the sets and costumes and get all the characters to act like Nazis, for a neat-o story idea" gimmick.

From a brainless action-adventure standpoint, at least "In a Mirror, Darkly" was kinda fun. The Gorn thing was obviously unintentionally hilarious. The whole Defiant/"The Tholian Web" take was silly. Kirk & crew found the Defiant derelict in space, with her systems obviously slowly going offline and the ship, in McCoy's words, "dissolving". Defiant was not salvageable. But it was neat to see Scott Bakula and the ENT gang wearing TOS uniforms and trying to learn (waaay too quickly) how to use Federation technology. It was neat to see the (suddenly revived) Defiant kick serious ass.

One serious gaffe in IAMD part 2 was when the Defiant had sustained direct hits which apparently violated her hull when she battled the Avenger; yet after the battle there is no visible damage and it seems like the battle never happened. That was just plain ridiculous.

I absolutely do not buy the whole Tholian scheme to lure a ship from a future they shouldn't know about subplot. That was goofier than TNG's Sela story arc.

Actually, I regard YE as superior to all of these "alternivserse" shows, including the original "Mirror, Mirror". At least YE had some serious plotting and concepts behind it, restructuring the TNG Universe because some strange event altered history, an idea vaguely borrowed from "City on the Edge of Forever". YE took that notion seriously and thoughtfully told a story based on where such a mishap could logically lead. "Mirror, Mirror" and its TNG/DS9/ENT descendants had no such underpinnings, instead wasting the viewer's time by using the "alterniverse" concept to romanticize a dystopic, nazified, perverted revision of Roddenberry's "sunny side up" vision of the future. Silly and tasteless.
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Last edited by Wingsley; July 3 2013 at 01:10 AM. Reason: typo correction
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Old July 3 2013, 01:18 AM   #37
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

I didn't feel my time was wasted...

And if you did feel that way, why did you watch it? Not like the episodes claimed to be anything other than what they were.
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Old July 3 2013, 04:26 AM   #38
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

t_smitts
I agree about how this should silence critics who thought nx enterprise looked too advanced. the defiant looked sleek awesome next to the other ships.

over all I think it held up well.

oh and read I Claudius. the period of roman empire from near the time of death of augustus to Claudius ruling is full of assassinations ect or watch it with Derek Jacobi.
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Old July 3 2013, 10:18 AM   #39
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

Wingsley wrote: View Post
One serious gaffe in IAMD part 2 was when the Defiant had sustained direct hits which apparently violated her hull when she battled the Avenger; yet after the battle there is no visible damage and it seems like the battle never happened. That was just plain ridiculous.
I agree that it was a serious gaffe, but maybe the explosions were actually sparks when it comes to hull of an advanced ship.


I absolutely do not buy the whole Tholian scheme to lure a ship from a future they shouldn't know about subplot. That was goofier than TNG's Sela story arc.
On this one I think you are wrong. That made sense, a lot of sense. Tholians detonated a tri-cobalt torpedo in the gravity well of a neutronic star and it opened a rift between dimensions. They had no idea it was also a time rift. They learned that only when Defiant was lured in. Tholians wanted to lure a ship from another dimension to learn if it is safe to go through. The fact that it was from the future and that passing through the rift drove the crew insane was just a nice bonus.

And actually Mirror Universe concept was introduced in Star Trek by Roddenberry. After all, Mirror, Mirror was his creation and in that episode the people were even crueler than in IAMD. Advancement in career was always made by killing people above you.
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Old July 6 2013, 09:47 PM   #40
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

Wingsley wrote: View Post
I first encountered ENT in reruns, so I was behind the times. That having been said...

"In a Mirror, Darkly" was the umpteenth attempt by the Berman sub-franchise to capitalize on the "alternative universe"/"alternate reality" trope, and, looking at these stories strictly on their plausibility, I would say that the only one of these that holds up is "Yesterday's Enterprise". None of the others ever made any sense. It's all "let's try tinkering with the sets and costumes and get all the characters to act like Nazis, for a neat-o story idea" gimmick.
I'm going to disagree with your characterization of IaMD as the same type of alternate universe story that YE was.

YE was an alternate timeline set in the real universe involving real universe characters, in other words, the characters we had known from the beginning of TNG.

IaMD is an alternate universe set in a universe which is not the real Ent universe and involving alternate characters who were not the characters we had known from the beginning of Ent. Thus there is little emotional investment in these alternate Ent episodes. The emotional investment in the YE characters had already been established because they are the [i]real[/] TNG characters.

YE had the easier task of seeming more meaningful and "important" because it involved the regular TNG characters but in a different timeline. Had we gotten to know the alternate IaMD characters better (which was the original plan) we may have had a much more satisfying experience with them. Mirror Mirror was no less disposable.

My point is that it was easier to create a more serious and impactful episode in YE because it used the regular TNG characters with their reality altered into an artificially created different timeline.

If you'd like an example of the level of profundity that could have been reached given time, read the compilation, Glass Empires.
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Old July 8 2013, 06:19 AM   #41
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

REDrake wrote: View Post
Wingsley wrote: View Post
One serious gaffe in IAMD part 2 was when the Defiant had sustained direct hits which apparently violated her hull when she battled the Avenger; yet after the battle there is no visible damage and it seems like the battle never happened. That was just plain ridiculous.
I agree that it was a serious gaffe, but maybe the explosions were actually sparks when it comes to hull of an advanced ship.


I absolutely do not buy the whole Tholian scheme to lure a ship from a future they shouldn't know about subplot. That was goofier than TNG's Sela story arc.
On this one I think you are wrong. That made sense, a lot of sense. Tholians detonated a tri-cobalt torpedo in the gravity well of a neutronic star and it opened a rift between dimensions. They had no idea it was also a time rift. They learned that only when Defiant was lured in. Tholians wanted to lure a ship from another dimension to learn if it is safe to go through. The fact that it was from the future and that passing through the rift drove the crew insane was just a nice bonus.

And actually Mirror Universe concept was introduced in Star Trek by Roddenberry. After all, Mirror, Mirror was his creation and in that episode the people were even crueler than in IAMD. Advancement in career was always made by killing people above you.
I sorta wondered if in non mirror verse the tholians almost the part of self appointed time police while their mirror side where trying to make use of any temporal tech they could find.

the tholians in the non mirror verse were more concerned with warning enterprise away. even then they allowed them to stay awhile to see if kirk would reappear. they didn't get pissed until the deadline was ended. even then their web seemed for containment and not destruction.

as for the question of damage to defiant . a theory about connie shields is that they were like layers of an onion. multi hits would take out the outer layers while still protecting the ship. but they could feedback energy in waves .. where all the shaking of the ship came from. sometimes even with shields a shot might get through a weak point and cause an actual breach. but you could have internal damage in the ship w/o actual breach.
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Old July 13 2013, 01:37 AM   #42
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

pookha wrote: View Post

as for the question of damage to defiant . a theory about connie shields is that they were like layers of an onion. multi hits would take out the outer layers while still protecting the ship. but they could feedback energy in waves .. where all the shaking of the ship came from. sometimes even with shields a shot might get through a weak point and cause an actual breach. but you could have internal damage in the ship w/o actual breach.
Well, truth to be told is fundamental flaw in Star Trek. Ships always look damaged, but in the next scenes damage is gone. Star Trek VI had such a gaffe too, Enterprise having a torpedo passing through the whole saucer only to show no damage in the next scene.
Excelsior was actually the reverse. A mild hit that made no damage on the exterior, but the scenes show extensive decompression in the interior.
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Old July 27 2013, 06:22 AM   #43
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

It was nice to see a Constitution class starship in operation again, even under these circumstances.
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Old July 27 2013, 01:27 PM   #44
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Lame. I couldn't have cared less what the alternate versions of the crew were up to. They're not the crew I'd been watching for four years and they didn't engage me one bit.
Agreed. Mirror Darkly was a high concept idea but low in content. It certainly didn't have to be two hours long. What makes these episodes stand apart from the mirror episodes of TOS and DS9 is that there was no crossover and therefore no link to the original crew. So most of what was happening with these one-dimensional moustache twirling alternate versions of the ENT crew didn't engage me as a viewer.

Besides that, to spend two episodes in an alternate universe when cancellation of the show was imminent seemed to me a huge waste of time, as it turned out to be in the end.
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Old July 27 2013, 01:43 PM   #45
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Re: MIRROR DARKLY-seven years old. Still hold up? Your thoughts.

Push The Button wrote: View Post
It was nice to see a Constitution class starship in operation again, even under these circumstances.
Yes it was! And I think they did such a great job with Defiant that oddly the TOS remastered shot of the Enterprise don't look quite as well as the job they did in IAMD.

As for IAMD, this is still one of my all time favorite ENT episodes, and in fact, my all time Star Trek episodes. It definitely still holds up for me. The only 2 complaints I have with it are
1. they killed practically everyone off, so returning to that universe would only have featured Hoshi and Mayweather.
2. The CGI for the Gorn doesn't hold up well, and I always had an issue with it not being consistent with the Gorn from Arena. Granted it moved a lot better but just didn't look like the same species to me. Looked more like a Velociraptor.
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