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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 18 2013, 07:59 PM   #91
throwback
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

WarpFactorZ,

I raised the design of the hangar deck to highlight the point that the two ships aren't the same size. I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
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Old April 18 2013, 08:01 PM   #92
WarpFactorZ
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Perspective! The thin windows on the rim are much closer than the bridge viewscreen. If they seem like they're the same size in the photo, the bridge one is much bigger.
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Old April 18 2013, 08:06 PM   #93
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

throwback wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ,

I raised the design of the hangar deck to highlight the point that the two ships aren't the same size. I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
I already answered this. I think the hanger deck was designed to be "cool looking," and give the impression of a modern-day military-style carrier. But the problem is one can't reconcile this structure within the space provided by the smaller ship. So, their solution was "well, uh.... the ship is bigger!" But they didn't bother changing the exterior design to make it look bigger. They scaled up the JPG, so to speak. It was careless corner-cutting.
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Old April 18 2013, 08:08 PM   #94
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King Daniel wrote: View Post
The makers of the movie say the ship is 725 meters long. They're the people who designed, modelled and detailed it. Who put it in the virtual environments. Yes, there was some camera trickery (the Enterprise was made much smaller to fit over the shipyard location - just as Kirk running into the ice cave on Delta Vega was a child running into a half-sized cave entrance), but 725m is their stated intention. It's ridiculous that some fans seem to think they know better. Who are you guys kidding?
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Old April 18 2013, 08:12 PM   #95
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

^
WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Perspective! The thin windows on the rim are much closer than the bridge viewscreen. If they seem like they're the same size in the photo, the bridge one is much bigger.
They're the same size as the bridge window on orthographic views. You can stop kidding yourself now. Those who made it, made it that size. There is no secret smaller ship hidden for the true believers if they squint hard enough.
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Old April 18 2013, 09:56 PM   #96
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]


I wonder...if we made the (baseless, mind you) assumption that the torpedo launcher on the JJ-prise is the same size as that on the refit...how big that would make the ship.

Which points out a problem with using *one* feature for a sizing reference...depending on which feature you use, you get different sizes. (Though if you have a human figure in the shot, that helps narrow it down a bit.)

It seems obvious to me that the ship in the movie appears to be different sizes in different scenes...so in my imagination, I'm gonna put it as maybe 1/2 again as big as the TOS ship. Maybe a wee bit less...1/3 again as big. But that's just a personal interpretation.
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Old April 18 2013, 10:01 PM   #97
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Frankly, I am surprised by WarpFactorZ's stance. As a college science teacher, I would think that he would be exposed to and using the techniques of the scientific method to form his hypothesis. However, judging by his words, I feel that he is misrepresenting himself as a scientist for he isn't using this method to form a hypothesis on the size of the Enterprise. I feel that if you are going to say that x is the same size of y that you need to say more than that x has the exact same shape as y. (This statement is already false, as there are significant differences between the two ships. A carbon copy is an exact match for the original.)

When I raised the hangar deck observations, I was expecting that he would respond with something more in alignment with his occupation, where, if even if he is wrong, he would at least set out proofs and demonstrations of his hypothesis that x is smaller than the stated dimensions.
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Old April 18 2013, 10:01 PM   #98
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]



This
The f-ing thing is 725 meters , deal with it. It should really be over a 1000 meters in order for the sets and deck layout to fit properly

Dan, do you a link to your awesome starship upscale article
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Old April 18 2013, 10:02 PM   #99
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
It was the error on the part of the animators and set designers that caused the "bigger ship" ruckus. They went for what "looks cool," instead of what would realistically fit in the space provided.
It's a movie. The size of the ship in relation to a ship from thirty years ago should be immaterial to ones' ability to enjoy the film.
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Old April 18 2013, 10:05 PM   #100
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Oh hey, a not on the JJ-prise hanger deck...if you look at it, it's clearly *wider* than the one on the TOS or refit Enterprise. (It looks kinda wide and flat.) So it not simply a matter of upscaling the original hanger...this hanger is a different *shape* than the original. It's obviously a wider hanger. So if we could imagine taking the TMP refit and widening the hanger a lot, in relation to the rest of the ship, and we wouldn't have to make the ship a lot bigger. However, this hanger is also taller, yes, but maybe not all that much. So we still have to take into account that this is a wide-mouth hanger, compared to the original.
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Old April 19 2013, 12:11 AM   #101
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

throwback wrote: View Post
Frankly, I am surprised by WarpFactorZ's stance. As a college science teacher, I would think that he would be exposed to and using the techniques of the scientific method to form his hypothesis
My hypothesis is: the artists screwed up and didn't communicate with the set-designers. The scale varies from shot to shot, ergo scale measurements are useless (although I find it funny that the only scene in which the E is conclusively smaller -- the shipyards -- is summarily rejected by the Big-E booster crowd).

The only constant is therefore the exterior appearance, which matches up almost precisely with the TMP refit: the windows, the hatches, the photon torpedo tubes, etc...

My conclusion is therefore the original intent was for the ship to be basically the same as the old, but on set JJ wanted BIG -- and no one realized that BIG meant the ship design was insufficient.

Anyway, I've wasted about enough time arguing the "correct" size of a pretend ship. I will now go apply the "scientific method" at the pub. My hypothesis is: I will get sloshed if I drink beer.
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Old April 19 2013, 12:58 AM   #102
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

I would say the the new Enterprise is 2550ft in length. 850 ft in width.
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Old April 19 2013, 02:14 AM   #103
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

If this is in the wrong thread, please relocate it. Thanks.

I believe I read here though, a discussion about the ship being 3x faster....

I remember reading in (I believe) Scholastic magazine when I was in high school just before STTMP was released, a description of the newly refitted Enterprise. It said...The old Enterprise is to the new Enterprise as a stick match is to an atomic bomb. They were referencing the new ships warp capabilities.

Does anybody remember anything like this and does it shed any light on how much faster this new ship might be?
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Old April 19 2013, 02:48 AM   #104
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

Since warp speed is completely hypothetical, who knows what it really means to be "3 times as fast". The options are: it can reach warp factors 3 times higher, or it can reach speeds 3 times higher. Let's assume the latter. I remember reading somewhere that the speed scales as the cube of the warp factor: warp 1 is the speed of light, warp 2 is 8 times the speed of light, 3 is 27 times, etc...

So using this scale, "three times faster" could mean if the Enterprise top speed is warp 5, say (125 times the speed of light), the Dreadnought can travel 375 times the speed of light, or warp 7.2.
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Old April 19 2013, 03:22 AM   #105
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Re: STID: The 前ther' Starship / [Spoiler]

throwback wrote: View Post
I would like to talk about the speed of this ship. According to the web site TrekMovie, this new ship is said to have three times the speed of the Enterprise. Now, before the first movie premiered, I learned from the official film dossier that the Enterprise had a maximum warp speed of 8.

So, if the Enterprise has a maximum warp speed of 8, and the Dreadnought can go three times faster, than what is the warp speed of this ship? Does this mean this ship can go to warp 24? Or am I doing the math wrong?
Might be an early form of transwarp. Perhaps JJ decided to incorporate an Excelsior type experimental the way they did in ST: III. This is an alterate universe, so size and speeds from the prime universe don't apply here. The Enterprise can be bigger for any number of reasons beyond the obvious, that technology development accelerated after the Kelvin incident. We have to remember too that JJ made the Kelvin way bigger too, and it would have techically existed in the Prime universe.
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