RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,585
Posts: 5,515,278
Members: 25,156
Currently online: 462
Newest member: jerrlaro

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 14 2013, 08:32 PM   #16
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

...On a tad grimmer note, it seems awfully unlikely that any intelligent culture could survive prolonged exposure to another one, if the exposure is the result of interstellar expansion. The expanding culture would have two factors more or less dictating that it crush the encountered culture: barring incredible coincidences of timing, it has vastly superior technology (as it sails from star to star and the other one at the time does not), and it has found in itself the motivation to expand.

In the scenario where interstellar colonization indeed takes place, the inevitable end result would seem to be extermination of all (future) competition - until the original expanders start fighting themselves, as would equally inevitably happen in the STL scenario where ideas take tens of thousands of years to cross the galaxy.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14 2013, 08:44 PM   #17
Metryq
Captain
 
Metryq's Avatar
 
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
There is a thesis held by some in the science community and it goes like this:
This statement and the wink at the end of the original post suggest that this is not what Zap himself believes, but the post certainly prompted much discussion.

The atom bomb reply is faulty because it violates many of the original premises—the vast spans of time for the statistical likelihood of certain events and the prerequisites to make a given thing (construction of an atom bomb) happen. While a nuclear reactor is not an atom bomb, there is at least one example of a naturally occurring one.
__________________
"No, I better not look. I just might be in there."
—Foghorn Leghorn, Little Boy Boo
Metryq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14 2013, 09:04 PM   #18
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

the vast spans of time for the statistical likelihood of certain events
But that one is highly debatable, as we have zero real idea about the timescales involved in making these particular discoveries. Indeed, we have zero real idea about how long it takes to invent an A-bomb after you invent your first thing (let's pick fire for the starting line marker, since although that's awfully human-centric, it demonstrates that we have no means of telling even how long human cultures would take to invent the A-bomb, apart from our woefully insufficient statistical sample of one case).

For all we know, ten thousand years of civilization is more than enough for inventing everything that can be invented, or ten billion is way too little. Furthermore, we currently put our full faith on the principle that the universe is pretty much the same everywhere, so the issue of resources or prerequisites (be they physical or law-of-nature sort) shouldn't really arise...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14 2013, 09:11 PM   #19
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Ferguson, Missouri, USA
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

Earth is currently a protectorate of a vast galactic government--we just don't know it yet. They've been watching us for decades now, intercepting some of our TV and radio transmissions, and after watching Jersey Shore, they're absolutely praying that we never develop a warp drive of our own and stay confined to our star system...
__________________
"Don't sweat the small stuff--it makes you small-minded..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14 2013, 09:24 PM   #20
Ronald Held
Rear Admiral
 
Location: On the USS Sovereign
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

It could be the Zoo hypothesis or prime directive. Perhaps warp capable civilizations are very rare but robotic exploration of the galaxy could be achieved via sublight propulsion in a time shorter than a billion years.
Ronald Held is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14 2013, 09:48 PM   #21
yenny
Captain
 
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

We don't know if warp travel is possible? But someone will figure it out, and when he does we will be exploring the universe.

Are there other civilizations beside those that live on the Earth? Yes. Everything that you say, do and think is being recorded by those that y'all don't believe in.
yenny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 14 2013, 11:57 PM   #22
not
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Earth is currently a protectorate of a vast galactic government--we just don't know it yet. They've been watching us for decades now, intercepting some of our TV and radio transmissions, and after watching Jersey Shore, they're absolutely praying that we never develop a warp drive of our own and stay confined to our star system...
Hmm, I'm not sure what would be more entertaining 'reality TV' or plain 'reality'
not is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15 2013, 12:10 AM   #23
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
There is a thesis held by some in the science community and it goes like this:

Our galaxy has so many worlds and has existed so long, that everything that can happen has happened, out there somewhere. You name it and some alien civilization has done it-- provided it is physically possible.

If warp drive were possible, it would have been invented billions of years ago by an alien civilization in our galaxy.

They would then have built a galactic empire and at some point, long before man evolved, they would have found Earth and colonized it themselves. Their expanding population needs real estate and other resources.

In that case, their animal control department, or maybe even terraforming efforts, would have prevented our evolution.

Since we are here, and there is no credible evidence that space aliens ever were, it follows that warp drive is physically impossible.

Are we all agreed?
To go all vulcan on you, I find your logic flawed.

1.>The universe is not limited to our Galaxy.
2.>Our solar system might not have even formed if some ancient civilisation discovered warp drive.
3.>Any FTL drive system might be limited to only a few hundred times the speed of light.
4.>They might have some sort of directive to stay away from less technoligcal advanced planets.
5.>Who knows if some alien civilisation didn't kickstart the creation of life on Earth (improbable yes.)
6.>Perhaps this alien civilisation destroyed itself before they reached Earth.
7.>Earth might not suit their biological requirments.



I could go.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15 2013, 01:26 AM   #24
JirinPanthosa
Rear Admiral
 
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

Stephen Hawking did famously say "If aliens were to come to Earth, it'd be like Europeans landing in America, and that didn't work out very well for the Native Americans did it?"

Not necessarily. Maybe it takes too much energy to get here for it to be worth coming here for the sake of conquering. Why come halfway across the galaxy to blow us up? You gain nothing, you would have to colonize and control us. And even with superior technology, how do you colonize and control seven billion people? You'd have to bring an army, and that'd have even higher energy demands.

Also, these aliens would have had to pass pretty damn close to us, in the last few decades, to even know we'd developed.

I don't believe we're the only intelligent life in the universe, but it's probably sparse enough that it's incredibly hard to find us and incredibly expensive to reach us, even if warp drive exists.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15 2013, 01:32 AM   #25
not
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

I'm curious as to why it always comes down to 'warp drive' or 'robotic' visitors -
It seems limiting
not is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15 2013, 02:17 AM   #26
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
... and after watching Jersey Shore, they're absolutely praying that we never develop a warp drive of our own and stay confined to our star system...
Having watched both Jersey Shore and The West Wing, as an alien I'd much rather meet Snookie than Jeb Bartlett.


Merry Christmas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15 2013, 04:57 AM   #27
ZapBrannigan
Fleet Captain
 
ZapBrannigan's Avatar
 
Location: New York State
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

not wrote: View Post
I'm curious as to why it always comes down to 'warp drive' or 'robotic' visitors -
It seems limiting
Without warp drive or some kind of FTL, it would take thousands of years just to reach the nearest star. So you send out robots in a thankless gesture to alien posterity, or you build huge "generation ships" with large populations aboard whose descendants will one day reach the nearest star.

One of the many troubles with such generation ships is that by the time your people get anywhere, they won't be your people anymore. Their culture would be entirely different after millenia in space.
ZapBrannigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15 2013, 05:04 AM   #28
not
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
not wrote: View Post
I'm curious as to why it always comes down to 'warp drive' or 'robotic' visitors -
It seems limiting
Without warp drive or some kind of FTL, it would take thousands of years just to reach the nearest star. So you send out robots in a thankless gesture to alien posterity, or you build huge "generation ships" with large populations aboard whose descendants will one day reach the nearest star.

One of the many troubles with such generation ships is that by the time your people get anywhere, they won't be your people anymore. Their culture would be entirely different after millenia in space.
Wormholes? Folding space?
not is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15 2013, 05:08 AM   #29
indolover
Fleet Captain
 
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

IMO, scientists conveniently preclude one possibility.

Maybe Earth is the only planet in the Milky Way to support sapient life. Somebody will respond that this is improbable, but there is no reason to categorically dismiss it, is there?

Also, a scientist should be open to all eventualities, and not rule things out based on his or her own subjective bias. As an example, if a geologist devises a theory to say that giant burrowing snakes in the mantle causes earthquakes, then of course the geological community will literally laugh out loud at that suggestion. However, this is only based on the evidence at hand and inductive logic, not personal feeling.
indolover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 15 2013, 05:17 AM   #30
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: If Warp Drive were Possible...

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
One of the many troubles with such generation ships is that by the time your people get anywhere, they won't be your people anymore. Their culture would be entirely different after millenia in space.
In the novel Voyage to Yesterday (James Hogan), instead of having a generation ship, or freezing people for protracted time periods, what you do is send genetic material only.

After arrival, the ship "makes people" who are raised and educated by robots until they are adults, at which time they descend to the surface and establish a colony.

Merry Christmas is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
alien, civilization, colonize, galaxy, warp drive

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:41 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.