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Old March 5 2014, 03:17 PM   #1141
Vandervecken
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Vandervecken wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

So - a doctor commits murder by NOT hitting a passer-by with a crow bar, taking him to the hospital and cutting him up in spare parts - because these spare organs could save the lives of 2 (or more) terminally ill patients.
And, as such, the actions of the doctor that killed a person for spare organs are not creepily evil, but in a moral 'gray' area'.

Really?
Let's euphemistically call the moral values wanna-be you expoused here, 'interesting', Vandervecken.
You're not even the first one to come up with such concepts; J Mengele - and others - thought along the same lines.
Ok, so you're comparing not actively murdering someone to walking by mortally injured crewmates and granting no succor? And you ARE saying Tuvok and Neelix are less important than Tuvix in this scenario, right? Because leaving them without necessary medical/technological attention in this case works out to that, and I think you don't much like the corner you've painted yourself into. Bear in mind I was writing that both acts are murder.
I'm comparing - legitimately - your absurd qualification as murder of the act of refusing to kill a person to save 2* with the qualification as murder of the act made by a doctor of refusing to kill a person to save 2.

As for where you advocated just this qualification - apparently, you think posters here can't read your previous posts. lol.

*how did you put it?: "leaving Tuvok and Neelix forever in an oblivion of nonselfhood [by not killing Tuvix] --are murder"

...and we have a winner of the Godwin's law-first contest!

LMAO! Look bra, I can't help it if you miss something right under your nose--ie, a post 2 posts above the one in which you completely misstate what I wrote. I know you feel a need now to try to attack what I've written from some other angle--that of non-originality now--because it seems you've invested a great deal of your self-esteem in a posting board, but at least try to keep it on an adult track, ok?

Nope, didn't think I was the first to come up with this conclusion. Somehow I don't think Mengele did either.

Oh, MAN, this is too rich!
Originality? You actually post this to be the substance of my last post? Talk about grasping at straws.
The substance of my post was your lack of coherent moral thinking as evidenced by your advocacy of obscene "morals".

About the posting of 'Godwin's law': You actually think the naming of the troupe obfuscates the fact that you are the "moral" succesor of Mengele and its ilk? Good luck with this one.
MWAH!

Gosh you're cute when you try righteous indignation on for size. Looks like it's a bit large for you, though.

I think naming a trope wins you the cupie doll, that's what I think. And here you go, trying for another prize. Do you have ANY idea of how batshit crazy you sound, comparing me to a Nazi war criminal? Because I think Tuvok and Neelix are just as important as Tuvix? Let's be clear here: I wrote--and affirm--that BOTH acts are murder. Taking apart Tuvix is murder, and leaving Tuvok and Neelix in a state of non-being is, effectively, murder. Pity you are unable to see that.

And I didn't make the comparison to the Doctor and the hammer. That was you, and I thought it was silly as hell. Trying for three prizes?

The absurdity is all yours chum. Comparisons to Mengele? Weird--and completely illegitimate--comparisons to withholding medical care from mortally injured people?

In this case, and not in many others, refusing to kill a person (Tuvix) IS killing other people (Tuvok and Neelix), which is what I wrote. The truth is they do NOT continue in Tuvix. Subsumption into some conglomerate being is not true life. If you insist that I'm "the spiritual successor to Mengle" (oh boy), then you are just as much so, because YOU are killing Tuvok and Neelix in this scenario by refusing to undo the making of Tuvix.

I wasn't making an argument in favor of one or the other--but you'd know that, if you'd actually read what I'd written.

What's strange to me is how hard you're working to avoid the truth of this. Why is it SO important to you to establish that Tuvok and Neelix are less important than the life of Tuvix. Why is that, I wonder? Oh well, like the number of licks and the tootsie roll pop, the world may never know. Not if you keep babbling on like this.

Now you just keep having that argument in your head with a Vandervecken who doesn't exist--you scarcely need to read anything I've actually written, you're doing just fine quoting the other guy in your head. it'll be safer for you that way, anyway, you won't hurt yourself.
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Old March 5 2014, 04:17 PM   #1142
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Vandervecken

Dude, in my comparison, the doctor, when refusing to kill a person in order to cut him/her up for spare organs, knows that the persons needing spare organs will die without them.
As such, as per your dictum - which you joyfully repeated and advocated* throughout your last post, ("and leaving Tuvok and Neelix in a state of non-being is, effectively, murder", "YOU are killing Tuvok and Neelix in this scenario by refusing to undo the making of Tuvix.") - the doctor refusing to kill a person for spare organs commits murder against the persons needing the spare organs.
As opposed to the doctor acting entirely morally - as any person with a functioning moral sense can tell you.

Meaning, my comparison of your obscene dictum with the doctor's actions is entirely legitimate.

And - since Mengele&co justified their slaughter with your terms (~'what about the persons that will be saved/not die by what we find out if we cut open a few jews and see how they work on the inside?; why, not cutting open these jews would be de facto committing murder against the millions of people our research will help.') - you're the one that sounds 'batshit crazy' in parotting their meme.
And, of course, my 'Godwin's law' posting is entirely legitimate.

*about your advocacy:
"Why is it SO important to you to establish that the persons that will be saved by the spare organs are less important than the life of the person the doctor will cut up for said spare parts. Why is that, I wonder?"
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Old March 5 2014, 04:28 PM   #1143
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Failure to act isn't murder, and ethicically...the act required to bring back Tuvok & Neelix is murder.

After this episode aired I had absolutely no respect for Janeway, Kes or any of the bridge crew who turned their backs on murder. The Doctor is the only one who emerged from this with any credit at all
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Old March 5 2014, 04:47 PM   #1144
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^Well-said.

I can't believe I'm re-entering this particular pool, but to reiterate points I likely brought up before:

1) There was no guarantee the restoration process would have worked. Janeway could have killed Tuvix for no reason at all. People should not treat this as though it was certain to work, and it is disingenuous to claim that.

2) How long did Tuvix exist? How long does he have to exist before he has the right to not be terminated? Can Janeway arrest Tuvix a decade hence because she finally found a way to bring back Tuvok and Neelix? If Janeway has the right to order Tuvix's death, does she have the right to order anyone els...actually, I guess TNG established per "Thine Own Self" that she does. "Ensign Kim, please step into that disintegration chamber!"

3) Allowing someone to die via inaction might be Negligent Homicide, but it's not Murder. At least that's my understanding of the legalities of it.
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Old March 5 2014, 05:12 PM   #1145
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

"Thine Own Self" isn't even that indicative, I'm sure in a real life scenario La Forge could have refused. He may well have been court martialed, but I don't see anyone forcing him into that Jeffries Tube.
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Old March 5 2014, 05:17 PM   #1146
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I don't think we'll ever agree on whether or not Janeway was right. Each side is more or less entrenched in their position. No matter what arguments are used.

It comes down to basically one question do you believe Tuvix has the right to live.
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Old March 5 2014, 05:31 PM   #1147
Vandervecken
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Vandervecken

Dude, in my comparison, the doctor, when refusing to kill a person in order to cut him/her up for spare organs, knows that the persons needing spare organs will die without them.
As such, as per your dictum - which you joyfully repeated and advocated* throughout your last post, ("and leaving Tuvok and Neelix in a state of non-being is, effectively, murder", "YOU are killing Tuvok and Neelix in this scenario by refusing to undo the making of Tuvix.") - the doctor refusing to kill a person for spare organs commits murder against the persons needing the spare organs.
As opposed to the doctor acting entirely morally - as any person with a functioning moral sense can tell you.

Meaning, my comparison of your obscene dictum with the doctor's actions is entirely legitimate.

And - since Mengele&co justified their slaughter with your terms (~'what about the persons that will be saved/not die by what we find out if we cut open a few jews and see how they work on the inside?; why, not cutting open these jews would be de facto committing murder against the millions of people our research will help.') - you're the one that sounds 'batshit crazy' in parotting their meme.
And, of course, my 'Godwin's law' posting is entirely legitimate.

*about your advocacy:
"Why is it SO important to you to establish that the persons that will be saved by the spare organs are less important than the life of the person the doctor will cut up for said spare parts. Why is that, I wonder?"

Failure to act so in THIS case is exactly the same as withholding medical attention. That's why there's no way out of this. I DO recognize that I'd be killing Tuvix to return Tuvok and Neelix to true life, but you are unable to face that you are killing Tuvok and Neelix by leaving Tuvix untouched. You are, and there is absolutely no way around that. You are withholding the only medical attention that will save them. If you want to live in a fantasy realm where I'm Mengele killing Jews, then live there.

YOU are the barbarian here--YOU are the one who would leave two people to die of phaser wounds in a corridor (were Trek real life).

The extent to which you're arguing with some other Vandervecken is borne out again by your repetition of this nonsense about the doctor. The dictum was YOURS, not mine. Shall we revisit who made this comparison?:

So - a doctor commits murder by NOT hitting a passer-by with a crow bar, taking him to the hospital and cutting him up in spare parts - because these spare organs could save the lives of 2 (or more) terminally ill patients.
And, as such, the actions of the doctor that killed a person for spare organs are not creepily evil, but in a moral 'gray' area'.

That's all you kiddo, not me.

I will address your ridiculous extension of the argument into the most removed-from-this-argument-hypothetical possible. The Doctor is not just taking any organs in the case of restoring Tuvok and Neelix; he is not attacking people with zero connection to them; he is taking back THEIR organs. They are just as much Tuvok's and Neelix's organs as Tuvix's. A transporter accident, for all intents and purposes, eviscerated them, and the Doctor here would be doing the equivalent of trauma surgery. With, unfortunately, the added requirement of killing another person to get at those organs. A more apt comparison would be: if two people need organ transplants, and to obtain them a doctor must kill a person who is guarding those organs with deadly force, is that permitted?

But I was advocating NOTHING. Get this through your self-congratulatory head (or don't, in the end who really gives a shit if you want to delude yourself, both about what I've written and about what your own, obvious advocacy would result in). Your repetitions to the contrary will not change the facts that exist. I did NOT advocate killing Tuvix---but you DO advocate killing Tuvok and Neelix, by withholding medical care. My comparison to injured individuals left to die in a corridor is apt and on target. Your comparison to a doctor murdering complete strangers for those organs is so beyond silly that words finally fail me. Tuvix is NOT a complete stranger to Tuvok and Neelix; he is, in fact, the person guarding THEIR organs with all his might and main.
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Old March 5 2014, 05:41 PM   #1148
Vandervecken
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
I don't think we'll ever agree on whether or not Janeway was right. Each side is more or less entrenched in their position. No matter what arguments are used.

It comes down to basically one question do you believe Tuvix has the right to live.
I'm NOT entrenched in my position, in the sense that I have a position about who should have been sacrificed based on some ethical equation. MY position was that, yes, restoring Tuvok and Neelix by killing Tuvix is murder, and yes, NOT restoring Tuvok and Neelix by killing Tuvix is murder, just as much murder as withholding critical medical care in any other situation. I advocated neither as the ethically sound option.

It comes down to TWO equally important questions:

Do you believe Tuvix has the right to live?
Do you believe Tuvok and Neelix have the right to live?

I answer yes to both. Which, as I pointed out, means that my first post was just an equivocation, NOT an advocacy of one side or the other. Some folks just don't want to see what's literally right in front of their eyes, though.
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Old March 5 2014, 05:44 PM   #1149
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

zarkon wrote: View Post
Failure to act isn't murder, and ethicically...the act required to bring back Tuvok & Neelix is murder.

After this episode aired I had absolutely no respect for Janeway, Kes or any of the bridge crew who turned their backs on murder. The Doctor is the only one who emerged from this with any credit at all

Yes, failure to act in this case IS murder. Just as much murder as if the crew just kept on walking by Tuvok and Neelix, lying in pools of blood in a corridor.
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Old March 5 2014, 05:51 PM   #1150
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Vandervecken

I DO recognize that I'd be killing Tuvix to return Tuvok and Neelix to true life
So - I see you're dr. Mengele wanna-be to the end - what with me being 'the barbarian' for choosing the moral option; you're not even pretending nowadays.

YOU are the barbarian here
Sure - and you and your hero Mengele&co are the civilized people. The Nuremberg trials - and the rest of humanity - disagrees.

The Doctor is not just taking any organs in the case of restoring Tuvok and Neelix; he is not attacking people with zero connection to them; he is taking back THEIR organs.
Janeway - not the Doctor - is part of the 'dr. Mengele wanna-be' club, as per VOY:Tuvix.

And Tuvix is Tuvok/Neelix's child. His 'organs' came from them but are nonetheless different, as the organs of a child come from his parents but are nonetheless different.
Guess what?
The doctor has no right to cut up a child for spare organs in order to save the comatose parents. That's what a child is yo you? A replacement heart? A new lung?
But wait - you used the straw-man de rigueur so it's all right, yes?

You seem determined to redundantly demonstrate that you have no functioning moral sense.

But I was advocating NOTHING.
Lol.
You kept advocating that, essentially, a doctor commits murder if he refuses to kill a person and cut him/her up for spare organs in order to save comatose people in need of transplants.
And in your last post, you went all the way to advocating murder followed by organ harvesting as the 'moral' course of action - as long as the one murdered is the child, and the comatose are the parents.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; March 5 2014 at 06:05 PM.
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Old March 5 2014, 05:54 PM   #1151
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
Yes, failure to act in this case IS murder. Just as much murder as if the crew just kept on walking by Tuvok and Neelix, lying in pools of blood in a corridor.
No it is not. Lawfully speaking, even in societies that have laws with a duty to act, that duty would not extend to committing the wilful murder of an innocent person as part of that action. Ethically speaking, how can it be just to murder someone to save someone else?
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Old March 5 2014, 06:03 PM   #1152
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

zarkon wrote: View Post
Vandervecken wrote: View Post
Yes, failure to act in this case IS murder. Just as much murder as if the crew just kept on walking by Tuvok and Neelix, lying in pools of blood in a corridor.
No it is not. Lawfully speaking, even in societies that have laws with a duty to act, that duty would not extend to committing the wilful murder of an innocent person as part of that action. Ethically speaking, how can it be just to murder someone to save someone else?
Yes, it is, and I don't accept your restatement as valid.

We're not talking about what's legal or not, we're discussing ethics. If you want to go by the letter of the law, then under English common law (the basis for most American law), I might suggest that Tuvok and Neelix have the prior claim here. But that would be foolish--the law is not the issue here. The reason the law is as it is in most societies is simply because there has to be a limit to what we hold people legally responsible. That doesn't address ethics.

I will throw the question back to you: how can you just let two innocent people die to allow another person to continue living, when you could save them? (In fact, that is the organ harvesting going on here. Or even an argument defending the actions of vampires, were there vampires. Your position is that it would be just fine to leave two people hooked up to an automatic blood-draining machine so that the vampire can survive. What right would we have to cause his death to save the two hooked up to the machine? And, after all, we're under no legal onus to help those people.) Fine, you have the law on your side. Are you right to leave those two people to die, though? I say you're killing them.
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Old March 5 2014, 06:07 PM   #1153
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Vandervecken

Are you right to leave those two people to die, though? I say you're killing them.
And humanity disagrees. Since you seem unable to figure this out yourself, see the Nuremberg trials (as in, inform yourself about them, the arguments there presented, the decisions made, etc).
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Old March 5 2014, 06:09 PM   #1154
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

But how do we define murder, what definition does the UFP use?
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Old March 5 2014, 06:15 PM   #1155
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
I will throw the question back to you: how can you just let two innocent people die to allow another person to continue living, when you could save them? (In fact, that is the organ harvesting going on here. Or even an argument defending the actions of vampires, were there vampires. Your position is that it would be just fine to leave two people hooked up to an automatic blood-draining machine so that the vampire can survive. What right would we have to cause his death to save the two hooked up to the machine? And, after all, we're under no legal onus to help those people.) Fine, you have the law on your side. Are you right to leave those two people to die, though? I say you're killing them.
Uh what is all this stuff

I'm not even getting into all this blood transfusion stuff, it doesn't equate at all and raises all kinds of other issues that aren't in play in the Voyager scenario

-two people have muxed to create new life
-new life is sentient
-two people can be brought back by killing the new life

- you have to act to murder the new life to bring back the two people. That the new life came from the two is immaterial; the new life did not make that decision itself and thus cannot be held accountable for it. So the new life should stay.

I mean there's heavy play here from an emotional standpoint, but from an ethical standpoint it's always been pretty cut and dry for me
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