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Old February 22 2014, 05:53 PM   #1111
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvix is a real person but he does not own his own organs.

Neelix and Tuvok do.

What he has are squatters rights.
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Old February 22 2014, 08:40 PM   #1112
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Are you arguing that an individual has no rights in the UFP?

And you have no basis in canon to refute my claims. But conjecture from what limited amount of the UFP Legal system we have seen would at least seem to support than an individual has the rights of freedom and self-determination.

How about this line from BOBW

Picard: Impossible. My culture is based on freedom and self-determination.

So wasn't Tuvix exercsing his right of self-determination?

What about "Measure of Man" in part that was about does Data have the right of self-determination.
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Old February 22 2014, 09:02 PM   #1113
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Are you talking to me?

Because I was just being silly.
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Old February 22 2014, 09:09 PM   #1114
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Are you talking to me?

Because I was just being silly.
Well not in relation to your post at least.
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Old February 22 2014, 09:29 PM   #1115
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

If this moral imperative was so important, then Kathryn should have gone and ahabbed for Neelix's lungs that were stolen by the Vidiaans in season one and got them back... And further more when Neelix and Kes broke up, she could have asked for her lung back from Neelix which she donated.

How did THE Vidiaan organ black market work any way?

Did the recipients know that they were harvested from the uniwilling and murdered, or did they believe a bunch of lies to keep their peace of mind?

If the recipient doiesn't know that they (two lungs, two recipients?) have to hide, Voyager might have been able to find them with ships sensors scanning Vidia from orbit.

But this is a point that Tuvix should have brought up about how Janeway usually doesn't care whear his organs wind up deposited, hell Tuvix could have made a ruckus and demanded they turn the ship around right now to go get them, since why should have have to die to make an inferior version of Neelix that 's only up to 90 percent of specifications?
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Old March 4 2014, 09:33 PM   #1116
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

NOT bringing back Tuvok and Neelix is equivalent to withholding necessary medical attention from them. They were NOT dead--obviously.

I'm not saying that what was done to Tuvix wasn't murder, but I AM saying that not bringing back Tuvok and Neelix would ALSO have been murder. There really is no good moral/ethical equation to work this out. The moral, of course, is to never get in the fershlugginer transporter! Ever!
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Old March 4 2014, 10:50 PM   #1117
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I disagree that not brining back Tuvok and Neelix would have been murder. Murder generally requires you do an act which results in the death of another person. If you do nothing (unless you had a duty of care i.e. a Doctor) than you can't be held liable for murder.

Now you could posisble argue that as Captain Janeway had a duty of care to those under her command, but once again Starfleet does act as the military force of the UFP and in a military sometimes people die. Secondly Tuvix was a civiliian and one of the duties of Starfleet is to protect the lives of civilians even at the cost of their own lives. Yes Neelix was a civilian also but he accepted the risks by signing up to serve onboard Voyager.

Now if Tuvix had gone through the transporter and it had sperated him back into Neelix and Tuvok without any action by Janeway then it's not murder. By forcing him to undergo a medical proecudre against his will performed by Janeway which resulted in the termination of his existance then it's murder.

Tuvok was duty bound to relenquish his life to safe the life of a civilian. The fact that this civilian was born out of a transporter accident doesn't diminish that fact.
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Old March 4 2014, 11:18 PM   #1118
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvok believed in suicide (Deathwish) therefore Tuvix Believed in suicide, therefor it wasn't such a big ask.
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Old March 4 2014, 11:23 PM   #1119
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

But which afterlife would he end up in?
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Old March 5 2014, 12:06 AM   #1120
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Maybe that's why Neelix couldn't get past the bouncer into the enchanted Forest in Mortal Coil?

Tuvix stole his place!

Vulcan's don't die any more?

(Barring accidents and surprises.)

They just shove their minds into other people or soulbanks.

Suicide must be an easy way out if on the other side of this, you're going to be stuck into a new young firm fit body?

Or possibly old people might chose to really, really die, die, leaving a hollow vessel behind that Vulcan's who actually want to live can use and meld into?
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Old March 5 2014, 12:08 AM   #1121
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
I disagree that not brining back Tuvok and Neelix would have been murder. Murder generally requires you do an act which results in the death of another person. If you do nothing (unless you had a duty of care i.e. a Doctor) than you can't be held liable for murder.


So, if two crewman were badly and mortally injured, it would NOT be murder to withhold medical attention from them? If Neelix and Tuvok were lying in a corridor with phaser burns that would be mortal without treatment, it'd be just fine, and not murder, for everyone to just walk by them? It certainly would be murder, in the Doctor's case at least, as you pointed out.

While most jurisdictions don't have "good Samaritan" laws that require people passing another who is harmed to, say, take him to the hospital, I'd say most of us would find someone who simply passed an injured person on the street, one unable to help himself, to be acting in a pretty morally objectionable fashion.

But these are crewmates on a ship, not simply stranger civilians passing each other by, and I'd guess that the Starfleet code of military justice would require them to help each other.

Anyway, this thread isn't about law, but in fact IS about ethics.
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Old March 5 2014, 12:28 AM   #1122
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
I disagree that not brining back Tuvok and Neelix would have been murder. Murder generally requires you do an act which results in the death of another person. If you do nothing (unless you had a duty of care i.e. a Doctor) than you can't be held liable for murder.


So, if two crewman were badly and mortally injured, it would NOT be murder to withhold medical attention from them? If Neelix and Tuvok were lying in a corridor with phaser burns that would be mortal without treatment, it'd be just fine, and not murder, for everyone to just walk by them? It certainly would be murder, in the Doctor's case at least, as you pointed out.

While most jurisdictions don't have "good Samaritan" laws that require people passing another who is harmed to, say, take him to the hospital, I'd say most of us would find someone who simply passed an injured person on the street, one unable to help himself, to be acting in a pretty morally objectionable fashion.

But these are crewmates on a ship, not simply stranger civilians passing each other by, and I'd guess that the Starfleet code of military justice would require them to help each other.

Anyway, this thread isn't about law, but in fact IS about ethics.
Aren't you overlooking one very important fact in your little scenario there? Helping those two crewmembers with Phaser wounds would obviously NOT kill another sentinent being! That's the key difference and it's beyond me how you can't see that. So yes, if you need it spelt out for you: If you had to end some innocent's life in order two save those two people, then yes, it WOULD be murder. I don't see what's so difficult about that.

MacLeod, I admire your continuing efforts in this thread. I think you should be commended. I honestly don't know how you can still have this discussion. It's like tilting at windmills. Frankly, I'm somewhat freaked out at the sheer number of people who consider the killing of an intelligent, feeling being to save two friends as the right thing. I don't see the grey area in this episode and the "there wasn't a right decision". Well, people, killing somebody ain't it.
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Old March 5 2014, 12:31 AM   #1123
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

McLeod clearly said that Doctor's have a "Duty of Care" which is a legal term as much an a an ethical term.

I was thinking more so about the Asimovian laws of Robotics and how they were clearly all about inaction being just as important as action.
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Old March 5 2014, 12:33 AM   #1124
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

M wrote: View Post
Vandervecken wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
I disagree that not brining back Tuvok and Neelix would have been murder. Murder generally requires you do an act which results in the death of another person. If you do nothing (unless you had a duty of care i.e. a Doctor) than you can't be held liable for murder.


So, if two crewman were badly and mortally injured, it would NOT be murder to withhold medical attention from them? If Neelix and Tuvok were lying in a corridor with phaser burns that would be mortal without treatment, it'd be just fine, and not murder, for everyone to just walk by them? It certainly would be murder, in the Doctor's case at least, as you pointed out.

While most jurisdictions don't have "good Samaritan" laws that require people passing another who is harmed to, say, take him to the hospital, I'd say most of us would find someone who simply passed an injured person on the street, one unable to help himself, to be acting in a pretty morally objectionable fashion.

But these are crewmates on a ship, not simply stranger civilians passing each other by, and I'd guess that the Starfleet code of military justice would require them to help each other.

Anyway, this thread isn't about law, but in fact IS about ethics.
Aren't you overlooking one very important fact in your little scenario there? Helping those two crewmembers with Phaser wounds would obviously NOT kill another sentinent being! That's the key difference and it's beyond me how you can't see that.
No, I didn't overlook that. But I'm afraid you seem to have (at least partially) overlooked my first post in this thread. I wrote that BOTH acts--dismantling Tuvix, or leaving Tuvok and Neelix forever in an oblivion of nonselfhood--are murder.

Here's what I wrote (a few posts above):

I'm not saying that what was done to Tuvix wasn't murder, but I AM saying that not bringing back Tuvok and Neelix would ALSO have been murder. There really is no good moral/ethical equation to work this out. The moral, of course, is to never get in the fershlugginer transporter! Ever!
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Old March 5 2014, 12:43 AM   #1125
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
McLeod clearly said that Doctor's have a "Duty of Care" which is a legal term as much an a an ethical term.
Yes, I know. I acknowledged that, too. It doesn't change the crew's own moral duty to Tuvok and Neelix.

Huh. I figured that since my post was nothing but a cop-out equivocation--I pretty much just shrugged and wrote there's no good way out of this ethical dilemma--that no one would much care about it (the post). And personally, for me, the practical lesson about the transporter is a better one. But it does seem as if some folks have an interest in not acknowledging the personhood of a couple of fairly obvious persons: Tuvok and Neelix. Or at least making their personhood less than Tuvix's. On the other hand, I have no special interest at all in denying Tuvix's personhood. It's just as obvious.

I sure hope this isn't an abortion/anti-abortion thing. I know it's not for me. It's science fiction, peeps.
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