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Old February 20 2014, 11:53 PM   #1066
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

hux wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
His 'sentience' and 'feelings' are in reality just an expression of the minds of the two men he is.
many philosophers would disagree with that definition

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
But Tuvix is not an individual. He is a hybrid. One in which Tuvok and Neelix had no choice.
But we're all a hybrid...no one would suggest we're not unique individuals because of this



I wouldn't allow it....but that doesn't mean he isn't real (a bizarre assertion) or a genuinely unique consciousness

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
It is natural that he shows an instinct for self preservation and it is sad...but it is irrelevant as the two men had to be saved. In many ways Tuvix is not even dying...he is being broken down into his component parts.
It's definitely not irrelevant....that's the reason this discussion never dies....his uniqueness is obvious...he was an genuine individual with a unique consciousness....and he was definitely real...saying he was composed of two individuals does not negate his own individuality anymore than saying it of a child of two parents

If he isn't real because he's made of two other people, then that would mean none of us are real (an interesting thought)

If he wasn't real, Janeway would not have looked so forlorn as she walked from sickbay

teacake wrote: View Post
I loved Tuvix, he was adorable. Why are you all picking on him why why
I liked him....and i thought the actor playing him was entirely brilliant....nailed it
1. You are possibly misunderstanding me. My point is that there isn't a Tuvix...there is only a fusion of Neelix and Tuvok. Descartes felt that all we can truly know is our own mind, while Tuvix is flesh and blood and sentient...is his mind his? It could be argued no, it is not.

2. We are not all hybrids. We are created by two individuals but we grow, live, develop, think and learn in ways that are unique to each of us and are not dependent on those who conceived us. Tuvix has none of this. 'Real' in this context pertains to Tuvok and Neelix having all of those qualities. And more.

3. His consciousness is certainly unique....but it is still irrelevant. He simply cannot be allowed to exist due to some fabricated ethical dilemma. He has far, far less to lose than Tuvok or Neelix.

4. For those who claim Janeway killed Tuvix. Would you have been ethically happier if she allowed him to live and thus 'killed' Tuvok AND Neelix?
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Old February 21 2014, 01:11 AM   #1067
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^really, you are saying your parents have had no influence on who you? Not in any way what so ever? We might not always want to admit it but our parents can play a part in who we become.

But under Federation LAW, Tuvix would be a unique indivdiual and be entitled to all the rights that the Federation bestows.

And once again how can Tuvix be held responsible for the ACCIDENT which created him?and PEOPLE DIE IN ACCIDENTS all the time.

Ethically, Morally and Legally Tuvix had the right to choose to live. It wasn't Janeway's life to take. You might disagree with Tuvix choosing to live, but that's his right as a sentient being. He can't be held responsible for the manner in which he was created.

No one is saying that Tuvok's and Neelixcarries a risk no matter how small that something might go wrong and you might not come out the other end. In this case something did go wrong. 's life have less value than Tuvix. But like anything using the Transporter

Saying Tuvix has less to lose, is hardly a valid legal argument.
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Old February 21 2014, 04:58 AM   #1068
Brit
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
^really, you are saying your parents have had no influence on who you? Not in any way what so ever? We might not always want to admit it but our parents can play a part in who we become.
But Tuvok and Neelix are not his parents, we give our children life but they do not take our life in exchange. Tuvix has taken both of them hostage.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
But under Federation LAW, Tuvix would be a unique indivdiual and be entitled to all the rights that the Federation bestows.
This one is only your assumption of Federation Law, in reality in the US a person cannot be forced to give up any part of their body for another, even after the donor has been declared legally dead. There has to be permission, either by the donor himself before his death, or by the next of kin afterward.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
And once again how can Tuvix be held responsible for the ACCIDENT which created him?and PEOPLE DIE IN ACCIDENTS all the time.
Only Tuvok and Neelix are not dead, there is a way to bring them back, and as there had been no permission on the part of either of them, the ethical thing to do is to give them their life back. You notice that neither one offers to be returned to the Tuvix existence.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Ethically, Morally and Legally Tuvix had the right to choose to live. It wasn't Janeway's life to take. You might disagree with Tuvix choosing to live, but that's his right as a sentient being. He can't be held responsible for the manner in which he was created.
No ethically and morally the right to life belongs to Neelix and Tuvok, and as the property in question obviously belongs to both of them in the first place, in all likelihood legally the right belonged to them too.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Saying Tuvix has less to lose, is hardly a valid legal argument.
Actually in a no win situation such as this, it is probably the most valid argument. The legality for or against is merely conjecture.
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Old February 21 2014, 08:07 AM   #1069
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Where is the force, no one held a gun to Tuvok or Neelix's head?

How can Tuvix be held responsible for his creation, an act which he had no control over?


Did Tuvok and Neelix knowingly accept the risk no matter how small that the transporter could malfunction?

Ok present your legal argument as to why Tuvix would not be entitled to the protection of Federation Law onboard a Federation starship? He is self-aware, Intelligent and has a consciosness. Also remember he can't be held responsible for how he was created.
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Old February 21 2014, 10:12 AM   #1070
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Book 19, Section 433, Paragraph 12: Regulation concerning the ability of ranking Federation officials to give direct orders to Starfleet officers. Referred to but not cited by High Commissioner Ferris in 2267 during the search for the missing shuttlecraft Galileo. (TOS: "The Galileo Seven")
Tuvix could have held an election, became a governor of the colony Voyager and ordered Janeway to her room.

General Order 1: "No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society." (TAS: "The Magicks of Megas-Tu")
This is a new wording to the Prime Directive I had not heard before. I do mean to watch TAS at some point, and I just might.

CHEKOV: Starfleet expressly forbids the death penalty.
KIRK: All my senior officers turning against me?
SULU: The death penalty is forbidden. There's only one exception.
CHEKOV: General Order Four. It has not been violated by any officer on the Enterprise.
KIRK: I am responsible. The execution will be immediate. Go to your posts. Go to your posts.
It's possible Tuvix broke general order 4, whatever the hell that is. No one knows.

  • General Order 7: No vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos IV.
This is also said to be the only death penalty left in Starfleet. ("The Menagerie, Part I")
If Tuvix could have been tricked into admitting that he wanted to go to Talos IV, then that was an attempted breach of GO 4, which is probably still the death penalty, even though he's 3/4's of a galaxy away.

Directive 101: Any individual accused of a crime does not have to answer any questions. (VOY: "Meld")
They can't prove that he did anything wrong, or that he was Neelix and Tuvok without trial
.
Starfleet Order 2: Starfleet regulation against the taking of intelligent life. (TAS: "One of Our Planets Is Missing")
Well, that ones pretty clear.

Regulation 121 (Section A): The chief medical officer has the power to relieve an officer or crewman of his or her duties (including one of superior rank) if, in the CMO's professional judgment, the individual is medically unfit, compromised by an alien intelligence, (TNG: "Lonely Among Us") or otherwise exhibits behavior that indicates seriously impaired judgment. A Starfleet officer can face court martial for failing to submit to such a relief. (VOY: "Year of Hell, Part II") It was also assumed that the same could be done by the senior counselor, if the senior officer exhibited psychological impairment, logically this would come under section B of regulation 121
The EMH punked out. He could have saved Tuvix with a word. However Janeway would have wound back his program a month and killed Tuvix anyway.

"The chief medical officer outranks the captain in health matters." (VOY: "Persistence of Vision")
Ditto.

"Striking a fellow officer is a court-martial offense." (TOS: "This Side of Paradise"; VOY: "Parallax"; ENT: "Bound")
Murdering Tuvix after the fact required a courtmartial to justify her activities post game.

"No killing of intelligent lifeforms." (TAS: "One of Our Planets Is Missing")
Duh.

Procedures pertaining to official requests for asylum to a Starfleet captain included a hearing. (VOY: "Death Wish")
I still think he should have made a request for asylum from Janeway to Janeway. She wouldn't be able to kill him until after she had fought herself to a stand still for the right to kill him.


http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star...nd_Regulations
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Old February 21 2014, 11:58 AM   #1071
hux
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
1. You are possibly misunderstanding me. My point is that there isn't a Tuvix...there is only a fusion of Neelix and Tuvok. Descartes felt that all we can truly know is our own mind, while Tuvix is flesh and blood and sentient...is his mind his? It could be argued no, it is not.
You can only say there isn't a Tuvix if you measure his existence in purely physical terms (which is why i don't believe Janeway can be accused of murder...she has destroyed no such physical material) but in philosophical terms, Tuvix does exist as an individual with a unique consciousness (he thinks, therefore he is) I'm, afraid Descartes would side with me on this one

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
2. We are not all hybrids. We are created by two individuals but we grow, live, develop, think and learn in ways that are unique to each of us and are not dependent on those who conceived us. Tuvix has none of this. 'Real' in this context pertains to Tuvok and Neelix having all of those qualities. And more.
Tuvix can grow, live develop, think and learn in a way that is independent of Tuvok & Neelix. Tuvix was a better cook than Neelix, he was already exhibiting separate skills and new thinking

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
3. His consciousness is certainly unique....but it is still irrelevant. He simply cannot be allowed to exist due to some fabricated ethical dilemma. He has far, far less to lose than Tuvok or Neelix.
I agree that Janeway made the right decision but justifying it by claiming Tuvix wasn't real doesn't work...."he begged to live"....Tuvok and Neelix would not have done that if they were in control of Tuvix (this is the best evidence for his uniqueness...this is what the prosecution would hang their case on)

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
4. For those who claim Janeway killed Tuvix. Would you have been ethically happier if she allowed him to live and thus 'killed' Tuvok AND Neelix?
This isn't an either/or situation.....Tuvix was a unique individual with a unique existence that was very real but Janeway's decision was the right decision and does not therefore make her a murderer....you can't convict someone of murder for destroying consciousness alone
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Old February 21 2014, 01:05 PM   #1072
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

So it's openly admitted that Tuvix was a unique individual and that he existed. As such he would have the protection of Federation Law. Now what Law/rule/regulation did he violate that warranted the termination of that existance?

As far as we know the Federation only has one death sentance on the books, visiting Talos IV.

So what do we call the taking of a life of someone who has seemingly commited no crime punishable by the Death Sentance?
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Old February 21 2014, 01:44 PM   #1073
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
So what do we call the taking of a life of someone who has seemingly commited no crime punishable by the Death Sentance?
You first have to define what "life" is and then define what constitutes "taking a life"

the philosophical concept of Tuvix as a unique consciousness has been destroyed - true

the physical material required to make Tuvix has been destroyed - false

so has life been taken.....yes and no

depends....that's why it's so fascinating
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Old February 21 2014, 05:01 PM   #1074
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Ok present your legal argument as to why Tuvix would not be entitled to the protection of Federation Law onboard a Federation starship? He is self-aware, Intelligent and has a consciosness. Also remember he can't be held responsible for how he was created.
Responsibility has nothing to do with it. No one is responsible. There was an accident that injured two members of Janeway's crew. They were in effect unconscious and could not speak for themselves. I am not going to go into Federation Law because that would only be conjecture for either you or I to consider it. You are assuming Federation Law backs up your point, but there is no proof either way. The only canon evidence is of course Data's defense, but that in no way could even come close to the situation presented in "Tuvix." Data is an unique life form, and was not depended on someone else's body for existence, and it took a Federation Court decision to even get that designation which gives some credence that there are no Federation Laws that cover the case of Tuvix.

What we do know is that each Captain takes personal responsibility for their crew, we don't know if this is the law, but we do know it happens over and over again in all the various Trek series. Janeway has no choice but to consider and in the end choose Neelix and Tuvok over Tuvix, to do anything else would be a betrayal to each and every one of her crew. Her crew has to trust that she make decisions that center on their welfare. Neither Janeway or her crew have the allegiance or even duty to Tuvix that they do to Neelix and Tuvok.
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Old February 21 2014, 06:26 PM   #1075
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
^really, you are saying your parents have had no influence on who you? Not in any way what so ever? We might not always want to admit it but our parents can play a part in who we become.
But Tuvok and Neelix are not his parents, we give our children life but they do not take our life in exchange. Tuvix has taken both of them hostage.
In order to take someone hostage (or commit a crime in any way) one must be able to consciously act. Tuvix could not consciously act to create his own life. There is not hostage-taking.

There are species that die after reproduction. Just because that isn't true of humans, doesn't mean it isn't true.

IDIC. Remember that?


MacLeod wrote: View Post
But under Federation LAW, Tuvix would be a unique indivdiual and be entitled to all the rights that the Federation bestows.
This one is only your assumption of Federation Law, in reality in the US a person cannot be forced to give up any part of their body for another, even after the donor has been declared legally dead. There has to be permission, either by the donor himself before his death, or by the next of kin afterward.
In multiple episodes of Star Trek, in all of the series, it's been made clear that all sentient life has the right to exist.

Your citation of transplant law actually works against you (not surprising, because you've never studied medical ethics, which has been made apparent by your posts in this thread).

No, organs cannot be donated without consent. While we might frown upon a child who is unwilling to give a parent a slice of her liver, we cannot compel her to risk her life to save another.

Tuvix was created by a process called symbiogenesis. Neelix and Tuvok are his parents. He cannot be compelled to give up his own life to save that of his parents.

Which is why the Doctor said, "No."
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Old February 21 2014, 06:29 PM   #1076
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The cop out in this episode is that as soon as Tuvok and Neelix are beamed on the sickbay bed, they are happy as ever. Tuvok even congratulates Janeway. Is would have been good to see both of them blaming her for killing Tuvix in order to save them.
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Old February 21 2014, 06:32 PM   #1077
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The cop out in this episode is that as soon as Tuvok and Neelix are beamed on the sickbay bed, they are happy as ever. Tuvok even congratulates Janeway. Is would have been good to see both of them blaming her for killing Tuvix in order to save them.
Yep, follow-up would have been appreciated.

However that would have violated the Prime Directive of Voyager: Janeway is always, 100 percent of the time, absolutely, infallibly right in the end.
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Old February 21 2014, 06:46 PM   #1078
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvix was created by a transporter fuck up. He is a transporter fuck up. He says he is an amalgamation of Tuvok and Neelix's memories/brain chemistry. To keep him alive you have to kill Neelix and Tuvok- they never died, they were combined into one body. No souls were destroyed by separating the bodies again.

Hell. the machine can Jekyl and Hyde folks like it did Kirk, there's no reason the shouldn't have been able to Get Neelix and Tuvok separated and still have Tuvix. The damned thing didn't care anymore about body mass than any other physical effects of nature. But the angst over Tuvix is angst over a mystification of human consciousness. He's a mix of two folks brain chemistry which was unmixed. There'd be no questions if Tuvok and Neelix's heads weren't blended together so, as asked before but never answered to my satisfaction, what makes the brain so sacrosanct? If just joined at the hip is OK to take apart, why can't the blended brain be? It is just another body part.
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Last edited by Gov Kodos; February 21 2014 at 06:58 PM.
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Old February 21 2014, 06:51 PM   #1079
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvok shat his soul all over the place every-time he melded with someone, meanwhile shouldn't Neelix have had that conniption he had in Mortal Coil is he had been truly worried why the frakk his soul had not goine to the enchanted forest?

He didn't. So he was fine, and alive the whoile time.
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Old February 21 2014, 07:07 PM   #1080
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

You say that now till he pon farrs and squicks all over Fair Haven. That may be what compelled Janeway to her choice.
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