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Old February 18 2014, 04:23 AM   #1051
Gov Kodos
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I'd say Janeway is being consistent. If the Borg consciousness isn't respected, why should Tuvix's be? Why is it OK to disregard Seven's desire to remain in that collective, but necessary to respect the Tuvix collective? She is pulling individuals out of their collectives.
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Old February 18 2014, 04:36 AM   #1052
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

janeway said that Seven was allowed to return to the Collective later after she had been taught what it meant to be an individual.
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Old February 18 2014, 12:16 PM   #1053
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Later? Who is Janeway to decide when Seven is ready? What of the Prime Directive, shouldn't Janeway keep out of interfering here? Besides, you're avoiding the point, why is the Borg collective one where separation can be forced, but Tuvix can't be forcibly separated?
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Old February 18 2014, 12:45 PM   #1054
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Of course, the real reason Tuvix had to go was that he was hopelessly creepy and gave everyone the heebie-jeebies.
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Old February 18 2014, 12:53 PM   #1055
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Boy, you said it, Coop ... and if sending him back through the transporter wasn't going to be an option, dropping him off at the first "M" Class Planet certainly should have! STAR TREK always did creepy, perhaps, a little too well ...
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Old February 18 2014, 01:03 PM   #1056
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I loved Tuvix, he was adorable. Why are you all picking on him why why
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Old February 18 2014, 01:03 PM   #1057
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post

So you are ok with murder then?

Tuvix was a sentient being, and in a sense born on a Federation Starship which would make him a Federation citizen and as such entitled to all the protections that come with it, and even if he wasn't a Federation citzen when onboard a Federation ship, Federalion law applies. Murder is against Federation law. Therefore Janeway was wrong and is guilty of murder.

It isn't murder though. She is fixing a horrendous accident. I think that is where some people are mistaking the real issue and viewing this as some moral, murderous wrongdoing.

Here is a controvertial statement: Tuvix isn't real. He is a scientific accident. Tuvok and Neelix are real and their bizarre fusion has resulted in a hybrid mess. Is it sentient? Surely it is. However, is it a being? No...its two. [As I say with lives and careers, friends, hopes, dreams].

I find it deeply immoral to just leave Tuvix to exist. Its condemning two real people to die. For me, Janeway had the guts to make the right call when her supposed supporting officers washed their hands of an awkward problem [and had no problem welcoming back Tuvok and Neelix].

Claiming Tuvix had rights, or was 'born' on the ship is just...odd. He is an [easily] fixable transporter accident. 'He' is not actually real, he is two other people.

Janeway was right.
In what way was Tuvix not real? He was a living breathing sentient being. He wasn't responsible for the accident that resulted in his creation.

And in a sense everyone born today is the culimnation of two people or rather two sets of DNA, their mother and father. In the case of Tuvix they would be Tuvok and Neelix. And in nature aren't there some species that die after giving birth?
urbandefault wrote: View Post
BUT ...

She didn't kill Tuvix. He was the product of a transporter accident. She rescued her crewmembers, which is what I would expect any Starfleet Captain to do.

Later, if Neelix or Tuvok had any objection to the separation they should have said so. I'm sure that if they had wanted to be rejoined, someone could have found a way to do it.

It's not really any different than restoring a changed timeline, in the process eliminating people who didn't exist before.

I don't get the outrage.

It would be interesting to hold a mock trial here on the forum. Appoint a defense counsel and a prosecutor, a judge (or panel of judges), select a jury, and call witnesses. Present your case, and let the facts decide.
urbandefault has answered that very well.

Tuvix is not real. He was not murdered. The weird analogies people are using here [broken condoms etc] just dont fit the scenario. Tuvix was not conceived, he was not born, he doesn't actually exist. He is a forced union of two men. His 'sentience' and 'feelings' are in reality just an expression of the minds of the two men he is.

I actually find it a little scary that some of you would allow 'Tuvix' to 'live'. It is the creation of a transporter accident. The two men inside are real. Just because it can make a sad face and say it wants to live doesn't change the fact that it is not real.

I have never understood the outrage over this.
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Old February 18 2014, 01:57 PM   #1058
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Forced implies a deliberate action.

Real

actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.

So yes Tuvix was real.
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Old February 18 2014, 02:02 PM   #1059
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teacake wrote: View Post
I loved Tuvix, he was adorable. Why are you all picking on him why why
You're taking the Mickey, here! You mean you would actually give Tuvix your hugs and kisses, if such a thing were possible? I find that very hard to believe ...
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Old February 18 2014, 05:05 PM   #1060
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Forced implies a deliberate action.

Real

actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.

So yes Tuvix was real.
But Tuvix is not an individual. He is a hybrid. One in which Tuvok and Neelix had no choice.

It is natural that he shows an instinct for self preservation and it is sad...but it is irrelevant as the two men had to be saved. In many ways Tuvix is not even dying...he is being broken down into his component parts.
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Old February 18 2014, 07:09 PM   #1061
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

If Tuvix killed Kes, would Neelix and Tuvok have been accountable?

Those two confined to quarters for the rest of their lives, unusable as crew, because they made all Tuvixes decisions after internal monologue and vote, because they were completely conscious the whole time and complicit.
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Old February 18 2014, 07:52 PM   #1062
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
His 'sentience' and 'feelings' are in reality just an expression of the minds of the two men he is.
many philosophers would disagree with that definition

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
But Tuvix is not an individual. He is a hybrid. One in which Tuvok and Neelix had no choice.
But we're all a hybrid...no one would suggest we're not unique individuals because of this

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I actually find it a little scary that some of you would allow Tuvix to live
I wouldn't allow it....but that doesn't mean he isn't real (a bizarre assertion) or a genuinely unique consciousness

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
It is natural that he shows an instinct for self preservation and it is sad...but it is irrelevant as the two men had to be saved. In many ways Tuvix is not even dying...he is being broken down into his component parts.
It's definitely not irrelevant....that's the reason this discussion never dies....his uniqueness is obvious...he was an genuine individual with a unique consciousness....and he was definitely real...saying he was composed of two individuals does not negate his own individuality anymore than saying it of a child of two parents

If he isn't real because he's made of two other people, then that would mean none of us are real (an interesting thought)

If he wasn't real, Janeway would not have looked so forlorn as she walked from sickbay

teacake wrote: View Post
I loved Tuvix, he was adorable. Why are you all picking on him why why
I liked him....and i thought the actor playing him was entirely brilliant....nailed it
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Old February 18 2014, 09:46 PM   #1063
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
If Tuvix killed Kes, would Neelix and Tuvok have been accountable?
It would have been Braga, it's always been Braga who slavishly slew her because of People !!
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Old February 19 2014, 01:13 AM   #1064
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Forced implies a deliberate action.

Real

actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.

So yes Tuvix was real.
But Tuvix is not an individual. He is a hybrid. One in which Tuvok and Neelix had no choice.

It is natural that he shows an instinct for self preservation and it is sad...but it is irrelevant as the two men had to be saved. In many ways Tuvix is not even dying...he is being broken down into his component parts.
Yes but surely they know that everytime they use the transporter it might go wrong. In this case it did go wrong. So they accepted the risks that come with using the transporter.

It seems as if we are perhaps looking at to different questions


Did Janeway do what was best for her crew

Was Janeway's actions in keeping with Federation Law (i.e. Self-Determination etc,...)?
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Old February 19 2014, 01:24 AM   #1065
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Maybe it's like baptism and confirmation?

Your parents sign away your rights as a baby, and when you become an adult after 20 years and a hundred thousand transports to your credit, you get to sign away your rights again to sue in case of accident.
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