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Old February 17 2014, 08:35 PM   #1036
hux
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
We agree that Tuvix was a sentient being do we not? So what do we call the deliberate ending of a sentient's being existance?
But (philosophically speaking) I just don't accept that his existence was ended (only changed) so we'll have to agree to disagree there

MacLeod wrote: View Post
The matter before the court was/should have been does Tuvix as a sentient being have the right to choose his own path?
Yes he does...and that right was definitely violated by Janeway....but....the consequences of that decision do not make her a murderer (especially given the bizarre and unique circumstances)

The best analogy i can come up with (and it's not very good) is this. Imagine a judge bans you from driving even though you've broken no driving law whatsoever. One day you get the bus to work & it crashes killing everyone on board (including you).

Would you have died if you hadn't been banned from driving - no

Did the judge infringe upon your rights - yes

Does that mean the judge is a murderer - no

Not the best analogy but you see what i'm getting at. Janeway is both guilty and innocent depending on what you're accusing her of....and personally, i do not accept that the accusation of murder can be upheld for the reasons i stated earlier

MacLeod wrote: View Post
The episode has certainly caused debate
I think it may be one of the most profound episodes in all Trek....i'm still amazed the writers didn't lose their nerve and simply make Tuvix change his mind at the end (yeah, sure i'm happy to bring Tuvok and Neelix back....go ahead captain) an episode where they really got it right
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Old February 17 2014, 09:19 PM   #1037
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Short or two months after conception, it's an abortion.

Tuvix was one month old.

They were fine.
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Old February 17 2014, 09:26 PM   #1038
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
So, I cant read 1000 posts on this so I'll just chip in with my opinion.

Janeway was right.

Tuvix is a freak accident. No history, no family. Is it unfortunate, even tragic? Yes.

But what would have been more tragic is abandoning two men with lives, with careers and [in Tuvok's case] with families to die. Janeway could not afford to let sentiment get in the way of restoring two real crewmen who were forced together to create a hybrid.

Sure its uncomfortable. Its meant to be. However, in my opinion, Janeway made the only real choice there was: fix the mistake and save two lives.
teacake wrote: View Post
She was fixing a transporter accident.
My feelings exactly.
So you are ok with murder then?

Tuvix was a sentient being, and in a sense born on a Federation Starship which would make him a Federation citizen and as such entitled to all the protections that come with it, and even if he wasn't a Federation citzen when onboard a Federation ship, Federalion law applies. Murder is against Federation law. Therefore Janeway was wrong and is guilty of murder.

It isn't murder though. She is fixing a horrendous accident. I think that is where some people are mistaking the real issue and viewing this as some moral, murderous wrongdoing.

Here is a controvertial statement: Tuvix isn't real. He is a scientific accident. Tuvok and Neelix are real and their bizarre fusion has resulted in a hybrid mess. Is it sentient? Surely it is. However, is it a being? No...its two. [As I say with lives and careers, friends, hopes, dreams].

I find it deeply immoral to just leave Tuvix to exist. Its condemning two real people to die. For me, Janeway had the guts to make the right call when her supposed supporting officers washed their hands of an awkward problem [and had no problem welcoming back Tuvok and Neelix].

Claiming Tuvix had rights, or was 'born' on the ship is just...odd. He is an [easily] fixable transporter accident. 'He' is not actually real, he is two other people.

Janeway was right.
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Old February 17 2014, 09:55 PM   #1039
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Then why did Janeway and Seven remain integrated after Relativity?

Several doppelgängers with slightly different memories were stuffed into each other that would have gone on to lead sightly different lives in their own timelines or fantastically different lives on a single Voayger with Three Captain Janeways and three Seven's of Nine(You don't htink the plural is like this? like Cul's de sack is the plural of Cul de sac.).
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Old February 17 2014, 10:20 PM   #1040
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post



My feelings exactly.
So you are ok with murder then?

Tuvix was a sentient being, and in a sense born on a Federation Starship which would make him a Federation citizen and as such entitled to all the protections that come with it, and even if he wasn't a Federation citzen when onboard a Federation ship, Federalion law applies. Murder is against Federation law. Therefore Janeway was wrong and is guilty of murder.

It isn't murder though. She is fixing a horrendous accident. I think that is where some people are mistaking the real issue and viewing this as some moral, murderous wrongdoing.

Here is a controvertial statement: Tuvix isn't real. He is a scientific accident. Tuvok and Neelix are real and their bizarre fusion has resulted in a hybrid mess. Is it sentient? Surely it is. However, is it a being? No...its two. [As I say with lives and careers, friends, hopes, dreams].

I find it deeply immoral to just leave Tuvix to exist. Its condemning two real people to die. For me, Janeway had the guts to make the right call when her supposed supporting officers washed their hands of an awkward problem [and had no problem welcoming back Tuvok and Neelix].

Claiming Tuvix had rights, or was 'born' on the ship is just...odd. He is an [easily] fixable transporter accident. 'He' is not actually real, he is two other people.

Janeway was right.
In what way was Tuvix not real? He was a living breathing sentient being. He wasn't responsible for the accident that resulted in his creation.

And in a sense everyone born today is the culimnation of two people or rather two sets of DNA, their mother and father. In the case of Tuvix they would be Tuvok and Neelix. And in nature aren't there some species that die after giving birth?
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Old February 17 2014, 10:36 PM   #1041
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

It took Neelix over a day to decide that he would give up his entire life, sacrificing his massive reserve of youth to raise a child in Eilogium.

That's how little he thought of taking Kes' Cherry.

The joyous rush of popping it, planting his flag right down deep inside her, wasn't close to the equivalency of the torture of the 7 months it would take to raise this fuzzy brat to maturity when they could leave home.

Would T'Pel have accepted Tuvix as good enough, and better than nothing?
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Old February 18 2014, 12:16 AM   #1042
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I suspect that T'Pel would've rejected Tuvix, unreservedly. She wouldn't have considered his Neelix qualities as an "improvement," that's for sure. What effect this fusion had on his reproductive organs, Roddenberry only knows, but no good can come from that. Even their children would be taking the Kholinar to purge the shame of having a rodent for a father. So your answer ... is "no," sir.
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Old February 18 2014, 01:54 AM   #1043
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Of course Janeway was wrong, as she told the Vidiians in Phage-

"I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act".
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Old February 18 2014, 02:07 AM   #1044
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BUT ...

She didn't kill Tuvix. He was the product of a transporter accident. She rescued her crewmembers, which is what I would expect any Starfleet Captain to do.

Later, if Neelix or Tuvok had any objection to the separation they should have said so. I'm sure that if they had wanted to be rejoined, someone could have found a way to do it.

It's not really any different than restoring a changed timeline, in the process eliminating people who didn't exist before.

I don't get the outrage.

It would be interesting to hold a mock trial here on the forum. Appoint a defense counsel and a prosecutor, a judge (or panel of judges), select a jury, and call witnesses. Present your case, and let the facts decide.
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Old February 18 2014, 02:20 AM   #1045
Gov Karnstein
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

urbandefault wrote: View Post
BUT ...

She didn't kill Tuvix. He was the product of a transporter accident. She rescued her crewmembers, which is what I would expect any Starfleet Captain to do.

Later, if Neelix or Tuvok had any objection to the separation they should have said so. I'm sure that if they had wanted to be rejoined, someone could have found a way to do it.

It's not really any different than restoring a changed timeline, in the process eliminating people who didn't exist before.

I don't get the outrage.

It would be interesting to hold a mock trial here on the forum. Appoint a defense counsel and a prosecutor, a judge (or panel of judges), select a jury, and call witnesses. Present your case, and let the facts decide.
Agreed, if the accident had made a body with two heads talking there would be no question about separating them. But, because it has one head folks question it. The show establishes him having the thoughts of both in his head, no surprise since the software of two has been blended together. Neither character died, they got combined, and now the combination is running on one brain and establishing itself that way. Janeway just unblended the mix.

Tuvix is being treated as untouchable, unlike the thing with two heads, because people are not willing to see the combined brains as the same as the joined body of the thing with two heads example. Brains were mixed together then unmixed. The viewer, with unsurprising atavism is viewing Tuvix as a new soul, rather than blended software. No souls died in the production of this episode.
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Old February 18 2014, 02:56 AM   #1046
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

So anyone who was conceived through a broken condom, or off a dirty toilet is not guaranteed the right life by the Federation?
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Old February 18 2014, 03:22 AM   #1047
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
So anyone who was conceived through a broken condom, or off a dirty toilet is not guaranteed the right life by the Federation?
What does this strawman have to do with Tuvix? The story establishes him as the thing with two heads. He says he is both of their memories together at the outset. In this story, the brains have been blended into one. Why can't they be unblended? What makes the brain sacrosanct beyond the rest of the body, or should a Siamese like twin of Tuvok and Neelix not be separated? Why should users of the transporter not have the assurance than transporter fuck ups like this episode be fixed? If we allow it, why not blend other crew members to make more useful characters?
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Old February 18 2014, 03:33 AM   #1048
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

If your parents had so much love in their lives that they wanted to create a life, then you deserve to live.

If your parents don't know how to use contraceptives, and your continuing existence annoys them, they are allowed to stuff you in he microwave and turn it on of 5 minutes.

If your parents is a transporter accident, which in itself isn't even in a person, then of course some dippy bureaucrat is allowed to muck up the verdict of Solomon while proving that she is wearing big girl pants.
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Old February 18 2014, 03:36 AM   #1049
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

You still haven't explained how the brain is sacrosanct above the rest of the body. If the brains were not combined there would be no issue with separating them. Why can't the brains be separated, unlike the rest of the body?

If you want to argue that Tuvix is a new consciousness (also, explain how that is different from a soul, rather than just chemicals firing neurons) that shouldn't be separated, how do you justify separating the consciousness that is the Borg to get Seven on board. Why shouldn't her request to not be separated be honored like Tuvix's desire to not be separated?

Looks to me in 'Tuvix that Janeway is just separating another collective consciousness like the Borg.
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Old February 18 2014, 04:04 AM   #1050
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

When did I say that brains are sacrosanct?

The Doctor wanted to kill (the 29th Century Drone) One just to get his Mobile Emitter back.

Telepathic races (Was Tuvix telepahtic like Tuvok was telepathic?) can identify the precise nature and qualities of a conciousness as distinct lifeforms.

Meanwhile the Borg, the Bynars and Data's grampa can digitize personalties suck them out of brains and pump them back into any brain (or hard drive) they feel like, so clealy "personalities" can be scientifically quantified, duplicated and mass produced, and editted to any degree along the way, to admit that personalities are scientifically quantifiable too.

Below decks, a complete copy of Tuvok's mind was parked inside Lon Suder's mind althroughout the Tuvix incident.

Tuvix could have jumpstarted the Tuvok locked away in there to take over Lon's body for long enough to figure out all Tuvoks thoughts on the Tuvix question, and really with a fully functional Tuvok and a fully functional Tuvix, does their destructions justify the return of Neelix, Tuvok and Lon Suder?
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