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Old October 19 2013, 09:52 PM   #946
R. Star
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

No he was saying transporter clone Tuvix. Now you have two Tuvix's. After they get over being tongue tied, then they separate one of them into Tuvok and Neelix.

While that seems a "please everyone" ending on the surface, Second Chances clearly established both Riker's were separate people. So you're still killing someone against their will. But that would put them in full God mode, the power to give and take life.
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Old October 19 2013, 10:18 PM   #947
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
. . .Janeway didn't wanna punish a murderer because she just knew later on down the road someone would ask her, "So why aren't you getting getting punished like that Suder guy?" . . .
If that were to happen, she could just take the easy answer, like James T. Kirk would: "I'm the Captain."
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Old October 19 2013, 10:20 PM   #948
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
No he was saying transporter clone Tuvix. Now you have two Tuvix's. After they get over being tongue tied, then they separate one of them into Tuvok and Neelix.
Not only did I get that, but I've heard it a hundred times and probably 10 noobs in this thread alone have made the very same suggestion. It's possible you misunderstood what I said.

Janeway felt that Tuvok and Neelix were suffering a living death in side Tuvix which must be complete torture.

Creating a duplicate doesn't change that.

Neelix and Tuvok are still inside Tuvix being tortured, even if a completely different Tuvok and neelix are wandering around not being tortured.

Torture is not cool.

Sure she also argued that, their families would be happier if Tuvok and Neelix came back, but these families now, under this scenario, have to deal with what superficially looks like the loved one they have always known, as well as the composit jerk trying to horn his way into the family festivities and vactions.

Meanwhile if Tuvix started having children with willing and consentual girlfriends or wives, would they call Tuvix their father, or go straight to the genetic sources, side stepping the middle man and give all their love to one of the half viable photocopied beings calling themselves Tuvok and Neelix and then a generation back further as these kinder start asking about grand parents, and then geat grand parents?
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Old October 19 2013, 10:24 PM   #949
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

If Tuvok and Neelix were suffering inside Tuvix he wouldn't be against the separation. Infact he'd probably be clutching his head in pain. He seems very composed the entire episode. Tuvix only refers to them as thinking of them as parents, so I get the impression there's only one consciousness in him - this new one.
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Old October 19 2013, 10:40 PM   #950
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Suffering metaphysically from being denied their own lives.

Oh, and Tuvix was a selfish asshole, but last I checked, that's not grounds for a state sanctioned execution.

Janeway and Tuvok had a 5 thousand year old sentient STD making love to their brains, who they took no analysis or concern towards before terminating the abosolute genocide there of.

Put enough of it in a specimen jar for prosperity is all I say, before you burn her brain free of this cosmic clap older than human civilization.

It's like they're all dead on the inside where normal people have feelings.
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Old October 19 2013, 10:47 PM   #951
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I don't really care about preserving every individual species of ever germ and virus and long extinct race.

They will always be alive if they live forever in a test tube.. no.
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Old October 19 2013, 11:13 PM   #952
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Kim turned the universe upside down... WAIT.

Brannon who wrote this episode, expressed the multiverse as a multitude of "timestreams".

It was a weird use of the word almost as if Braga didn't understand how everyone else in science fiction before him had used the word.

Did Kim feel that he had to retemper the Universe because it was unfair that Daniel Bird got his shitty lot trapped in the Delta Quadrant, or that it was that Tom got a shitty lot being forced to stay in the AQ sidestepping his path to redemption building himself up from being a scummy perpetually wasted dickhead?

I had thought that he changed the universe jiggled the fate of everyone that was alive and would ever be yet to be born, because either Tom was being tortured by a life unbecoming him, or Daniel Byrd was being tortured by a life unbecoming him, in either case he took a scalpel to reality because one or two particular human beings mostly, somewhat happy with their lives needed to be murdered and replaced to satisfy Kim's version of what is ideal.

My revelation however is if Kim just jumped timestreams, rather than rewrote a timestream, then he left behind an intact timestream where Daniel Byrd was still in the Delta Quadrant and Tom Paris was going to go to jail for ever for stealing that shuttle, that is if Tom survived Harry Chakotaying the prototype into the side of a space woogy.

Kim killed Tom, and didn't save Daniel.

What a dick.

If Kim doesn't care about screwing over universes, why should Janeway care about screwing over germs?
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Old October 20 2013, 05:46 PM   #953
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

This episode kinda makes me think Picard would hate working with Janeway. Imagine Janeway in I, Borg - she would instantly use the guy against the borg. I can't see Picard doing anything but arguing for Tuvix's rights in this situation. But it seems in Nemesis Janeway & Picard are friendly, huh.
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Old October 20 2013, 05:56 PM   #954
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Icheb and Seven both had Borg AIDs and she didn't use them.
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Old October 20 2013, 06:56 PM   #955
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Makarov wrote: View Post
This episode kinda makes me think Picard would hate working with Janeway. Imagine Janeway in I, Borg - she would instantly use the guy against the borg. I can't see Picard doing anything but arguing for Tuvix's rights in this situation. But it seems in Nemesis Janeway & Picard are friendly, huh.
To me, seeing Janeway as an Admiral only confirms that it's helpful on a resume to be evil or corrupt. Why do you think Kirk didn't cut it as an admiral?
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Old October 26 2013, 09:51 AM   #956
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I'm probably the only person who has ever watched this episode to not think that Janeway's decision was in any way controversial. I believe that she faced, essentially, the same basic decision faced by any person who has ever had to make a decision regarding the usage and/or removal of life support, and see absolutely no controversy in that kind of decision.

It's hard to say whether or not a Federation court of law would've agreed with the decision from a moral standpoint, but I have a hard time believing that such a court would have legally punished her for the decision.
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Old October 26 2013, 10:20 AM   #957
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

In TOS epiosde Courtmartial Kirk was almost convicted of murdering a crewman and covering it up as a command decision.

In TNG Data avoided being murdered by proving through a binding trial that he was a life form with guaranteed rights under federation law not to be murdered by a silly command decision from his superiors.

You don't have to follow illegal orders.

Was it a legal order?

Although even Deanna is allowed to order a lower ranked officer or crewman to their death, it's probably still on the books merely a hundred years later that the only reason they kill you is becuase of an excursion to Talos Four.

No one went to Talos IV.
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Old October 26 2013, 10:28 AM   #958
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

In STID when they said Harrison had gone the one place they could not go I assumed it was Talos IV.. for like two seconds LOL.
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Old October 26 2013, 10:38 AM   #959
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I just assumed John was going to put the Enterprise on blocks and run the engine in reverse so his dad didn't find out he was playing hooky.
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Old October 26 2013, 07:10 PM   #960
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teacock wrote: View Post
In STID when they said Harrison had gone the one place they could not go I assumed it was Talos IV.. for like two seconds LOL.
Picard seemly went to Kronos every third weekend, why can't Kirk go there?

GoRe Star wrote: View Post
To me, seeing Janeway as an Admiral only confirms that it's helpful on a resume to be evil or corrupt.
It's likely also helpful if you're capable of making the tough decisions and are willing to put your own people lives ahead of a transporter accident.





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