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Old May 14 2013, 11:01 PM   #811
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Accidentally, and in no way intended by the writers or the producers, you would be talking about Riddles, where Neelix convinces the new personality living inside Tuvok to get lobotomised to bring back Mr Vulcan.
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Old May 15 2013, 07:38 AM   #812
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
... he could do both Neelix and Tuvok's jobs.
And could he be in two places at once? Tuvok and Neelix could.

Were Neelix and Tuvok struggling to get out, or were they happy inside him?

Tuvix claimed that they were happy and his parents.
As I point out earlier, there was no apparent effort on the parts of Tuvok and Neelix to become recombined.

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Old May 15 2013, 09:06 AM   #813
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Which means that they were just as hateful and selfish as Tuvix, which is probably where Tuvix got all his hateful selfishness from.

The Gift of the Magi this is not.
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Old May 16 2013, 09:58 PM   #814
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Halliwell wrote: View Post
No, you missed the point. It was pointed out to Deanna by Riker , very very clearly, that her first duty IS TO THE SHIP. The ship. Deanna's whole trouble with the test was that she was having difficulty sending a person, any person, to their death. Morals have nothing to do sometimes with command decisions when the first duty is to the ship.


He is speaking figuratively with regards to the moral obligation any officer holds to save the ship's crew as part of their duties -- an obligation they agreed to undertake by joining Starfleet.

Once again: A commander has the authority to issue an order that will result in an officer's death if he is ordering that offer to perform her lawful duties, such as combat or ship repairs. A commander does not have the authority to simply order someone to die. Tuvix was not ordered to perform lawful duties that would result in his death; he was merely ordered to die. This is illegal under military law.

Getting back to Janeway and Tuvix. Janeway had to make a hard choice, and one way or another the "moral" high ground simply wasn't available to her.
Of course it was. Not murdering Tuvix was available to her.

Morally, like she herself said and Kes agreed with, the captain had a moral obligation to Tuvok's family and Neelix's.
Yes -- she had a moral obligation to inform the families of their deaths.

And why is Tuvix morally innocent. It is the moral obligation of any Starfleet officer to sacrifice their lives for another.
Is it, in all possible circumstances? Where has this been established?

Tuvix had an opportunity to save the lives of two men.
No, he did not. They were already dead.

And morally, is not the prime directive also an immoral directive?
Depends on how you interpret it.
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Old May 16 2013, 11:26 PM   #815
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sanctimonious poppycock. Neelix and Tuvok aren't anymore dead than Brundlefly or the Thing with Two Heads. Unglitch the glitch.
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Old May 16 2013, 11:42 PM   #816
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

So there's a colony with only enough food for a month, but the relief ship with more food isn't going to show up for two months, so everyone will die unless the Governor of said colony orders the deaths of half the colony, so that the remaining half can live.

What do you call someone like that?
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Old May 17 2013, 01:14 AM   #817
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Bad at math.
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Old May 17 2013, 01:20 AM   #818
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Governor Miral Paris?
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Old May 17 2013, 02:43 AM   #819
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sci wrote: View Post
Halliwell wrote: View Post
No, you missed the point. It was pointed out to Deanna by Riker , very very clearly, that her first duty IS TO THE SHIP. The ship. Deanna's whole trouble with the test was that she was having difficulty sending a person, any person, to their death. Morals have nothing to do sometimes with command decisions when the first duty is to the ship.


He is speaking figuratively with regards to the moral obligation any officer holds to save the ship's crew as part of their duties -- an obligation they agreed to undertake by joining Starfleet.

Once again: A commander has the authority to issue an order that will result in an officer's death if he is ordering that offer to perform her lawful duties, such as combat or ship repairs. A commander does not have the authority to simply order someone to die. Tuvix was not ordered to perform lawful duties that would result in his death; he was merely ordered to die. This is illegal under military law.

Getting back to Janeway and Tuvix. Janeway had to make a hard choice, and one way or another the "moral" high ground simply wasn't available to her.
Of course it was. Not murdering Tuvix was available to her.

Yes -- she had a moral obligation to inform the families of their deaths.

Is it, in all possible circumstances? Where has this been established?

Tuvix had an opportunity to save the lives of two men.
No, he did not. They were already dead.

And morally, is not the prime directive also an immoral directive?
Depends on how you interpret it.
Um, no...Riker said that her first duty was to the ship. The ship. And whether or not you agree with it, Janeway's decision was what was best for Voyager in her judgement as commander of the ship. Setting her own feelings aside, in a ship far away from home, with no fresh personnel to restaff the ship, separating Tuvok and Neelix gets her two officers for one.

And again, no, Tuvok and Neelix were not dead, if they were dead Tuvix would not have existed. They were joined together in symbiosis. Like Jadzia and Ezri were joined to the Dax symbiont.

I guess you would say that Commander Sisko was a murderer when he forced Verad to give up the Dax symbiont. Remember that after Verad was joined with Dax he became a new entity. But I guess all you need is enough hate for Kathryn Janeway to give Sisko a pass for saving Jadzia, his friend, at the expense to the new Verad Dax entity. It didn't matter that the abduction of Dax was illegal, buy your standards Sisko and Julian Bashir committed murder of Verad Dax.

Tuvix himself said that both Tuvok and Neelix had a strong will to live. She asked herself what would they want? Again, your analogy that they were dead is flawed, they were alive, joined together. You better damn well bet they would want the captain to do just what she did.
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Old May 17 2013, 02:50 AM   #820
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
So there's a colony with only enough food for a month, but the relief ship with more food isn't going to show up for two months, so everyone will die unless the Governor of said colony orders the deaths of half the colony, so that the remaining half can live.

What do you call someone like that?
So you have food for half of them. Out of the starving half, you could kill only half of them, and have them eat the dead. Then 3/4 of the colony survives.
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Old May 17 2013, 03:42 AM   #821
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

C'MON!! I'm not being subtle here!
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Old May 17 2013, 03:48 AM   #822
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
So there's a colony with only enough food for a month, but the relief ship with more food isn't going to show up for two months, so everyone will die unless the Governor of said colony orders the deaths of half the colony, so that the remaining half can live.

What do you call someone like that?
The Man of La Mancha to whom Janeway has some similarity.
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Old May 17 2013, 04:11 AM   #823
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

You're all just fucking with me.
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Old May 17 2013, 05:39 AM   #824
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
So there's a colony with only enough food for a month, but the relief ship with more food isn't going to show up for two months, so everyone will die unless the Governor of said colony orders the deaths of half the colony, so that the remaining half can live.

What do you call someone like that?
So you have food for half of them. Out of the starving half, you could kill only half of them, and have them eat the dead. Then 3/4 of the colony survives.
What if Tuvix had announced, "I hate these ears, they make me look like an elf! Doctor, please remove the points." I don't think the EMH would have done it, he would have had residual feelings that Tuvok would not have wanted his ears bobbed.
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Old May 17 2013, 06:06 AM   #825
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I've explained that Neelix and Tuvok were dead five ways till Sunday, and I'm not gonna repeat myself again. But I will address this:

Halliwell wrote: View Post
I guess you would say that Commander Sisko was a murderer when he forced Verad to give up the Dax symbiont. Remember that after Verad was joined with Dax he became a new entity.
Possibly. I haven't seen that episode, so I don't know enough about it to come to an informed conclusion. I don't rule out the possibility, though.

But I guess all you need is enough hate for Kathryn Janeway to give Sisko a pass for saving Jadzia, his friend, at the expense to the new Verad Dax entity.
Okay, listen: I do not hate Janeway, and I'm not sure why you would think I do. I actually rather like the Janeway character. I think Kate Mulgrew is an awesome actor, and I think it's absurd that there haven't been more female captains in Star Trek, or more female series lead characters.

I regard Janeway's decision in "Tuvix" to be an outlier in her characterization, as I simply do not think a starship commander compassionate enough to protect an innocent world like the Ocampa from foreign aggression that she would willingly strand herself across the galaxy, would be the type to kill an innocent man.

So from an out-universe perspective, I think it's bad writing that's inconsistent with the character.

From an in-universe perspective, however, if I were an admiral at the Starfleet JAG office? I would think Janeway amazing, a hero, someone who saved her crew and the Federation many times over. But I would also think that in this instance, there is probable cause to indict her for murder, and I would want her put before a court-martial for it.

A person can have very complex attitudes about someone's actions, and can think that they did something truly, utterly wrong, without hating them.
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