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Old May 12 2013, 11:28 PM   #781
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The Storm Trooper clones come out with a limited personality.

They do not have the full Jango in them.

Jango is chained down.

With this process, unless they modify it a little to churn out a thousand new solders per implementation... You get a fully actualized, intelligent and educated person with (until recently) unique needs wants and drives.
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Old May 12 2013, 11:35 PM   #782
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
publiusr wrote: View Post
Here is a suggestion. A tansporter is first used to make a Thomas Riker clone of Tuvix, with the original separated into Tuvok and Neelix.

Three for the price of two.

No one dies
All that does is create a new copy of Tuvix -- Tuvix 2.0 -- while still killing the original Tuvix in the course of creating new copies of Neelix and Tuvok (the originals of whom still remain dead).
Well unless the Tuvix copy is the one that is the one that is split and not the original.
Pardon me; I didn't pause to remember the details of the Riker twin scenario, and so I spoke erroneously.

Splitting Tuvix into two and then splitting one of the Tuvixes into Tuvok and Neelix would not mean killing one copy of Tuvix while preserving the original Tuvix; it would mean killing the original Tuvix, creating two copies of Tuvix -- Tuvix 2 and Tuvix 3 -- and then killing one copy of Tuvix in order to create Tuvok 2 and Neelix 2.

So you'd actually be killing two people, not one, in order to create new copies of people who have already died.

Halliwell wrote: View Post
In the TNG episode Thine Own Self, Deanna Troi had to learn that to command a starship, she may have to order a friend, or a member of the crew, to sacrifice themselves for the safety and the well being of the ship she commands.
You've missed the point. A commander can order a fellow officer to do their duty to the crew even if the consequence is death; so Troi can order the chief engineer to repair the warp drive even if it means fatal radiation poisoning. We cannot order the chief engineer to simply be killed.

My duty to the ship and it's crew comes before personal or moral implications.
Don't be absurd. Morality is more important than anything else; the entire point of life is to be moral. And besides, Tuvix was as competent an officer as Tuvok; killing him and replacing him with a copy of Tuvok does not actually benefit ship's efficiency.

Lee Enfield wrote: View Post
No. The transporter does not create copies! It's a quantum-state/position and energy transfer(!!).
Sure. When it's functioning normally.

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
I'm too lazy to go back and check, but is this thread fifty pages of people forgetting that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one) has been a core conceit of Trek philosophy since at least Wrath of Khan?
Did you forget that the very next movie affirmed the opposite: That sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of many?

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
M wrote: View Post
The key difference, of course, being that they flat-out stated that both halves would die if not recombined.
Tuvok and Neelix were dead without Tuvix being uncombined.
Yes. Exactly. They were already dead. They cannot be saved, only copied.

Ergo, it is immoral to kill an innocent man for the sake of someone who is already dead.
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Old May 12 2013, 11:54 PM   #783
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The next 4 to 6 months after Tuvix, after they marooned Janeway and Chakotay, where Tuvok was Captain... Tuvok and Neelix can now switch back and forth whenever they care to... Maybe they didn't think of it at the same time, but they had to take turns drunk dialing the other.
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Old May 12 2013, 11:59 PM   #784
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

There were some important qualifications to STIII's "The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."

First, besides McCoy, everyone else who went with Kirk on the stolen Enterprise was a volunteer. Kirk expressed "The needs of the one..." to Spock, not to postulate a sweeping counter-axiom to Spock's "The needs of the many...", but rather to let Spock know how much he in particular meant to them specifically. It was as if Kirk had said, "But we love you, Spock."

Second, neither Kirk nor Spock demanded that anyone die. Kirk intended that everyone live, in fact. Additionally, it was fortuitous for both Saavik and Spock that they even came at all.
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Old May 13 2013, 12:05 AM   #785
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Had you ever noticed how similar Menagerie was?

Spock stole the ship to save his friend.
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Old May 13 2013, 12:35 AM   #786
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Any semilegal yet totally immoral clone army would have been provoked into being created by the continuing Dominion War in the Alpha Quadrant that the Federation was losing.
^^ okay, I see. But it's still the old moral weighting.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
At the very least a feasibility study would have been warranted.
Generally a good idea...

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
And if the Federation wouldn't do it themselves, how much of a shot in the foot would it be to hand over the technology to the Klingons or Romulans?
... ^^ perhaps that's why it's not a good idea to do the study, after all. The Genesis-Incident shows what Federation would do with a planet like this : they'd quarantine it.
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Old May 13 2013, 01:59 AM   #787
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Lee Enfield wrote: View Post

^^ okay, I see. But it's still the old moral weighting.

The argument is that in the face of death and enslavement that the Federation would sell out their principles.
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Old May 13 2013, 03:04 AM   #788
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

A comparison can be made to time travel...when McCoy disappears into the Guardian and kirk and company realize the enterprise is gone they go back to fix it. Now the solution is to let Edith die. But billions of others are changed. When 1st timeline goes away billions die replaced by others with anow equal right to live..ie tuvix. Kirk and Spock erase all of timeline 2 to restore 1. Now in this case it was easier because the Nazis won in Timeline2. But what about the reverse? If you are in a bad timeliness made better would you erase the better one to go back to the.1st? Killing Tuvix is like erasing a timeline2 to restore timeline1 thus killing some to be replaced with others
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Old May 13 2013, 03:26 AM   #789
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

It's how you define bad.

Spock thought it as bad because man never invented warp drive, which is ridiculous, the Nazi's would have had a man on the moon by 1952. Maybe the reason that man never made it out into space in that timeline is that the Aryan Nation in charge was just wonderfully content with the paradise they had created after removing all the unwanted elements form the gene pool.

It seems ridiculous, but Nazi's don't know that they're evil, so they're capable of happiness and pride.
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Old May 13 2013, 03:39 AM   #790
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
It's how you define bad.

Spock thought it as bad because man never invented warp drive, which is ridiculous, the Nazi's would have had a man on the moon by 1952. Maybe the reason that man never made it out into space in that timeline is that the Aryan Nation in charge was just wonderfully content with the paradise they had created after removing all the unwanted elements form the gene pool.

It seems ridiculous, but Nazi's don't know that they're evil, so they're capable of happiness and pride.
Um, no.
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Old May 13 2013, 06:07 AM   #791
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

They'd probably know now, hindsight, retrospect, but in the 1930's even the Nazi's throwing people into ovens thought that they were righteous super heroes working for the smartest most honourable man in the universe.

I know he's a fictional character, but do you really think that Colonel Klink was such a bad guy? Was he magically ignorant, or in on the genocide?
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Old May 13 2013, 06:11 AM   #792
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

What can I say but that Hogan's Heroes was a comedy, dude. Oh, and that Sergeant Schultz was funnier. Cuddlier.
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Old May 13 2013, 06:26 AM   #793
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Some were complicit, most were ignorant.

What was happening was top secret.
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Old May 13 2013, 06:55 AM   #794
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
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^^ okay, I see. But it's still the old moral weighting.

The argument is that in the face of death and enslavement that the Federation would sell out their principles.
Yes, but it fails in the case of the clones. Starfleet (et al.) defeated the Dominion, without even thinking about a clone army.
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Old May 13 2013, 06:58 AM   #795
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

No. Starfleet Lost the war.

The Dominion surrendered anyway.
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