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Old May 7 2013, 11:06 PM   #676
Dream
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

cabby wrote: View Post
The bigger problem is the CATCH-22 proposed on here, that since Tuvix didn't want to sacrifice his life, he was not worth of life. Joseph Heller would be proud.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to stay alive. No one should be forced sacrifice his or her life for another.
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Old May 7 2013, 11:08 PM   #677
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

cabby wrote: View Post
So officers DO NOT have a duty to follow ALL orders which are given to them as stated above.
No, but like I said, officers are not obligated to follow illegal orders. Janeway's orders WERE LEGAL. You can debate till you're blue in the face if they're MORAL, but they are LEGAL. There is a difference.

So explain to me how arbitrarily ordering a crew-member to their death in a non-emergency situation is legal.
Because Janeway needs Tuvok and Neelix back.

Dream wrote: View Post
No one should be forced sacrifice his or her life for another.
Not until they join the service, anyway (real or fictional). Then they most certainly can be forced.
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Old May 7 2013, 11:09 PM   #678
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
cabby wrote: View Post
since Tuvix didn't want to sacrifice his life, he was not worth of life.
Not true. Every Starfleet officer is worthy of life, but they may still be ordered to sacrifice themselves in the course of their duties. That doesn't make them worthless, it simply means they're doing their duty.
Interesting you used the term "in the course of their duties."

Going to sickbay and dying for two dead individuals is not a part of this person's duty, anymore than it would be ordering Tuvix to turn a phaser on himself, or ordering Belanna do donate her organs to the Videans.
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Old May 7 2013, 11:19 PM   #679
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
cabby wrote: View Post
So officers DO NOT have a duty to follow ALL orders which are given to them as stated above.
No, but like I said, officers are not obligated to follow illegal orders. Janeway's orders WERE LEGAL. You can debate till you're blue in the face if they're MORAL, but they are LEGAL. There is a difference.

So explain to me how arbitrarily ordering a crew-member to their death in a non-emergency situation is legal.
Because Janeway needs Tuvok and Neelix back.

Dream wrote: View Post
No one should be forced sacrifice his or her life for another.
Not until they join the service, anyway (real or fictional). Then they most certainly can be forced.
You can debate if it was the right decision for her crew. (the utilitarian aspect)

The morality of the act is not debatable----this is an obviously immoral act. This is the pre-meditated taking of the life of a sentient being.

Legal. She thinks about it, considers it and orders the person to die.

Lets look at the definitions of murder or manslaughter.

Murder: unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Manslaughter: intentional killing that is accompanied by additional circumstances that mitigate, but do not excuse, the killing

A "need" for someone is not justification, legal or moral for her actions. For her actions to be lawful, captains would have to have the rights to decide life and death arbitrarily for their crew in terms of any need.

For instance could trade Tom Paris to a slaver for coffee grounds.
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Old May 8 2013, 03:55 AM   #680
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The only law on the books that ends in execution by the 24th century is daytriping to Talos IV.

Any order that ends in murder is therefore not on the books.

I suppose if you shot a volley from a phaser battery at another ship and 900 people die, it's just collateral that those 900 people died, and the Captain didn't order her weapons officer to kill anyone because there's a reasonable assumption that the opposing vessel can surrender or retreat before shit gets real.

Kathryn spent a fraught night, a dozen hours awake, and almost as much having nightmares on the subject, worrying if she could kill Tuvix, and considering she spent so long contemplating, it's clear that the ship did not NEED Tuvok and Neelix for their skillsets they brought to the mission, it was about their right to live as people.

And even then it was because Tuvok had a family and Neelix had Kes,the final conclusion was about how much family these two crazy kids had that couldn't stomach the blend.

WouldT'Pel have accepted/frakked Tuvix had she been on site?

I just want to remind you all that Kieko O'Brien was regressed into the body of her ten year old self, and still tried to have sex with her 40 year old husband. If Miles really loved his wife, he would have stood his ground and submitted to her adult and mature needs.
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Old May 8 2013, 04:10 AM   #681
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

If Tuvix really had the qualities of Tuvok and Neelix, he would have freely volunteered his life to save both Tuvok and Neelix.

That he was unwilling to do so demonstrated, concretely, that he was as a mythological changeling, as a troll exchanged for a human infant, but, in this case, two.

For all intents and purposes, he was a manifestation of the abduction of two crew members, lacking the character of either.

Additionally, as the degradation that he was, in the long run he was even potentially a security threat to the ship.

Good riddance.
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Old May 8 2013, 04:24 AM   #682
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

There have been 13 discussions about Tuvix as the subject of the thread in the last 6 years. This doesn't include of course the epic derails of people's review threads when they get to Tuvix. This thread is the biggest, the WINNER in the beat Tuvix to death no wait he was never really alive stakes. More than 5 times longer than the second most prolific Tuvix thread.
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Old May 8 2013, 04:29 AM   #683
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The only law on the books that ends in execution by the 24th century is daytriping to Talos IV.

Any order that ends in murder is therefore not on the books.
Which is further supported in Turnabout Intruder when Sulu and Chekov refuse to carry out Lester/Kirk's order to execute Kirk/Lester, Spock, Scotty, and McCoy.
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Old May 8 2013, 04:35 AM   #684
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
If Tuvix really had the qualities of Tuvok and Neelix, he would have freely volunteered his life to save both Tuvok and Neelix.

That he was unwilling to do so demonstrated, concretely, that he was as a mythological changeling, as a troll exchanged for a human infant, but, in this case, two.

For all intents and purposes, he was a manifestation of the abduction of two crew members, lacking the character of either.

Additionally, as the degradation that he was, in the long run he was even potentially a security threat to the ship.

Good riddance.
So if he had volunteered to get whacked, he would have passed some sort of cunning ruse and been allowed to live?

...

Neelix is a deserter who ran a way from a war and people depending on him.

If Neelix really cared about Voyager and Voyager's crew he never would have found a girlfriend, abandoned Voyager and settled down.

Tuvok has a fundamental belief in the right to chose suicide if the situation calls for it.

In The Void Tuvk aruged that voyager should kill rape an pillage from weaker ships in the Void for Voyager to survive.

...

What you call Tuvix's Trollish behaviour, I say is unique characteristics that proove that Tuvix is a distinct being greater than the sum of his parts and a real living feeling being with a soul having the same complete set of rights as everyone else on Voyager.

...

If Neelix really was so damn necessary, then Kathryn should have ordered a less important lower decksman, certianly a Maquis who is barely only qualified to push a mop, to hand over a lung back in seaosn one.

"Sigh"
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Old May 8 2013, 04:35 AM   #685
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teacake wrote: View Post
There have been 13 discussions about Tuvix as the subject of the thread in the last 7 years. This doesn't include of course the epic derails of people's review threads when they get to Tuvix. This thread is the biggest, the WINNER in the beat Tuvix to death no wait he was never really alive stakes. More than 5 times longer than the second most prolific Tuvix thread.


Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
So if he had volunteered to get whacked, he would have passed some sort of cunning ruse and been allowed to live?
No, it was already necessary to bring back Tuvok and Neelix; Tuvix's selfishness should have just made Janeway's decision easier.
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Old May 8 2013, 06:10 AM   #686
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teacake wrote: View Post
There have been 13 discussions about Tuvix as the subject of the thread in the last 6 years. This doesn't include of course the epic derails of people's review threads when they get to Tuvix. This thread is the biggest, the WINNER in the beat Tuvix to death no wait he was never really alive stakes. More than 5 times longer than the second most prolific Tuvix thread.
I heard if we get to 100 pages, Tuvix will be magically resurrected.
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Old May 8 2013, 06:24 AM   #687
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

So if your mum needed a kidney and your dad needed a kidney too, and you were all compatible, and if you didn't give a kidney to one of them you're an asshole but if you didn't give a kidney to each of them then you're a motherfucking asshole?

Voyager was told that they were responsible for the destruction of Earth in the 29th century. Did Janeway submit to her execution to save billions or did she fight back and start up the very chain of events which actually did (and did not) lead to the forecasted certain doom of Planet Earth?

Is the Doctor less important, and less real, and have less rights, lets be honest, the Doctor has no rights... The Doctor should have killed himself or chosen not to make the cure rather than allow himself to be the architect of Tuvok's execution. WTF was that last minute handwashing bullshit? We all know Pontious Pilot is a cunt and that if he had had some balls Jesus would probably still be alove today.

If Tuvix had tried to kill the Doctor, then it's appropo if during the proccess if he was aware, then the Doctor should have admitted that Tuvix is more real and more alive and has more rights than he does and that it is the right thing to do under the circumstances to murder a hologram to save a Talaxian/Vulcan hybrid, it was the right thing to do to murder a million holograms to save one Talaxian/Vulcan Hybrid.

Ergo the Doctor is a selfish dick to cling to his life at the cost of Tuvix's existence.
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Old May 8 2013, 06:43 AM   #688
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
So if your mum needed a kidney and your dad needed a kidney too, and you were all compatible, and if you didn't give a kidney to one of them you're an asshole but if you didn't give a kidney to each of them then you're a motherfucking asshole?
Amusing, but not analogous. Childbirth isn't a malfunction.
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Old May 8 2013, 07:38 AM   #689
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I've heard parents say childbirth was an accident and wasn't supposed to happen before.
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Old May 8 2013, 07:58 AM   #690
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

And we've already brought up the real world case where parents conceived a child as spare parts for a sick kid they already had.

Ask your mum how long she spent in the abortionists flipping a coin, while she was making you. Last time I didn't ask, I have no idea why she tells me these things, my mum told me that she had had 5 abortions.

Condoms malfunction, the pill malfunctions, diaphragms malfunction, spermicidal jelly doesn't quite reach everywhere or the malfunction is the boyfriends head that he's sure that he can pull out before anything squirts out... We are, baring a select few whose parents are crazy, all accidents that ruined our parents lives because they were too wussy of cheap or ignorant to get an abortion.

Some babies are planned. 95 percent of them however, and that's being generous because of all the 40 year olds in IVF programs, are not.
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