RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,570
Posts: 5,514,365
Members: 25,150
Currently online: 471
Newest member: kingkane

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 7 2013, 10:34 PM   #661
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dream wrote: View Post
Janeway would have no right to order Neelix to save another at the cost of his own life.
As long as Neelix travels aboard Voyager, and serves in any kind of official function among the crew (head chef and ambassador), then Janeway has every right to give him orders just like she would do to any member of the crew. Neelix is not just a passenger - he has jobs to do. That gives Janeway the right to give orders to him.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 10:36 PM   #662
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
Janeway would have no right to order Neelix to save another at the cost of his own life.
As long as Neelix travels aboard Voyager, and serves in any kind of official function among the crew (head chef and ambassador), then Janeway has every right to give him orders just like she would do to any member of the crew. Neelix is not just a passenger - he has jobs to do. That gives Janeway the right to give orders to him.
Sure, and Neelix has every right to say "You're nuts, I quit" and hop on his shuttle.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 10:39 PM   #663
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^ Perhaps. But like I said, as long as Neelix is on the ship (and I'm sure Janeway can keep him from leaving if she so chose, since she can keep his ship from exiting the shuttlebay), he is subject to orders. So is Seven, and she's not Starfleet either.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 10:42 PM   #664
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Perhaps. But like I said, as long as Neelix is on the ship (and I'm sure Janeway can keep him from leaving if she so chose, since she can keep his ship from exiting the shuttlebay), he is subject to orders. So is Seven, and she's not Starfleet either.
And this is the problem with a single authority figure with no checks on them. Whenever they get some crazy idea in their head, like executing an innocent person against their will, there's no one to stop them.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 10:44 PM   #665
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Tuvix may not be committing a crime, as such, but remember the argument posited earlier - that Tuvix, as a Starfleet officer (due to Tuvok's memories) should be willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. I'm having a hard time being against this argument. If Tuvix insists on his own life, is this not contrary to that spirit of self-sacrifice that every Starfleet officer is expected to have?
Good point. I guess that Neelix and Tuvok would have been more ready to die.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 10:45 PM   #666
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
And this is the problem with a single authority figure with no checks on them. Whenever they get some crazy idea in their head, like executing an innocent person against their will, there's no one to stop them.
Janeway is the captain of a ship. That alone gives her the power - and the right.

The real-world counterparts to this situation aren't just military, in fact. A civilian airline pilot also has near-absolute authority aboard their plane (I believe, although don't quote me on this, that if a passenger is causing enough disruptions, the captain may even order that person shot dead). And this has been the case even before 9/11.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 10:48 PM   #667
cabby
Lieutenant
 
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Perhaps. But like I said, as long as Neelix is on the ship (and I'm sure Janeway can keep him from leaving if she so chose, since she can keep his ship from exiting the shuttlebay), he is subject to orders. So is Seven, and she's not Starfleet either.
This conflates the issue, because it is the morality of the order, and the voluntary nature of it which determines its morality and legality.

Janeway is not a dictator, and is not exempt from law. Her simply giving an order to someone does not entail the crew following it. The crew has a duty not to follow immoral orders (as the EMH demonstrates at the end of this episode).
cabby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 10:51 PM   #668
cabby
Lieutenant
 
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
And this is the problem with a single authority figure with no checks on them. Whenever they get some crazy idea in their head, like executing an innocent person against their will, there's no one to stop them.
Janeway is the captain of a ship. That alone gives her the power - and the right.

The real-world counterparts to this situation aren't just military, in fact. A civilian airline pilot also has near-absolute authority aboard their plane (I believe, although don't quote me on this, that if a passenger is causing enough disruptions, the captain may even order that person shot dead). And this has been the case even before 9/11.
The latter part of your example pertains to emergency situations. This was not an emergency.

She is not a dictator or a god and has no standing in a non-emergency situation to arbitrarily decide life and death.
cabby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 10:51 PM   #669
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

cabby wrote: View Post
Janeway is not a dictator, and is not exempt from law.
I'll give you that part...

Her simply giving an order to someone does not entail the crew following it.
...but not that one. A crewmember under Janeway's (or anyone else's) command is not allowed to question orders simply because of morality. It's not their place to do so. A crewmember may refuse to follow an illegal order, but not an 'immoral' one; Janeway is clearly not violating Federation law when she performs the procedure on Tuvix, so that alone absolves her of any legal sanctions. The question of whether her actions were *moral* is another thing entirely; but the fact that they were LEGAL makes the crew bound to follow them.

The crew has a duty not to follow immoral orders (as the EMH demonstrates at the end of this episode).
The EMH gets a pass, because he is also bound by his oath as a doctor. The rest of the crew, however...their oaths as Starfleet officers require them to follow all orders given them. As I just said, it's not the crew's place to determine morality. They must follow all legal orders, without question. Janeway's orders were legal. Therefore, by definition, they must be followed.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 10:52 PM   #670
Dream
Admiral
 
Dream's Avatar
 
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I think a huge problem with why this topic is going in circles is that people aren't arguing the main point.

Stop arguing whether Janeway did the right thing or not. There will always be a difference in opinion.

What should be talked about is whether Janway's actions meets the definition of murder. No matter how much you disliked Tuvix or wanted Tuvok and Neelix back, it was murder. Janeway took Tuvix's life away without his consent.

You can think Janeway did the right thing (I don't), but she still murdered Tuvik to get her two crewmen back.
Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 10:54 PM   #671
cabby
Lieutenant
 
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
cabby wrote: View Post
Janeway is not a dictator, and is not exempt from law.
I'll give you that part...

Her simply giving an order to someone does not entail the crew following it.
...but not that one.

The crew has a duty not to follow immoral orders (as the EMH demonstrates at the end of this episode).
The EMH gets a pass, because he is also bound by his oath as a doctor. The rest of the crew, however...their oaths as Starfleet officers require them to follow all orders given them.
So if Janeway orders a crewmember to fire photon torpedos at a school bus of innocent children he has to follow orders?

Require them to follow all orders given to them? ---See Unification part 2 in TNG for this moral discussion.
cabby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 10:55 PM   #672
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dream wrote: View Post
it was murder. Janeway took Tuvix's life away without his consent.
His consent is not required. Tuvix is still a member of the crew, and wanted to be treated as such. There are many instances where a military commander may order a subordinate to sacrifice his or her own life. Consent is not required.

cabby wrote: View Post
So if Janeway orders a crewmember to fire photon torpedos at a school bus of innocent children he has to follow orders?
No, because that would clearly be an illegal order.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 11:00 PM   #673
cabby
Lieutenant
 
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dream wrote: View Post
I think a huge problem with why this topic is going in circles is that people aren't arguing the main point.

Stop arguing whether Janeway did the right thing or not. There will always be a difference in opinion.

What should be talked about is whether Janway's actions meets the definition of murder. No matter how much you disliked Tuvix or wanted Tuvok and Neelix back, it was murder. Janeway took Tuvix's life away without his consent.

You can think Janeway did the right thing (I don't), but she still murdered Tuvik to get her two crewmen back.
The bigger problem is the CATCH-22 proposed on here, that since Tuvix didn't want to sacrifice his life, he was not worth of life. Joseph Heller would be proud.
cabby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 11:05 PM   #674
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

cabby wrote: View Post
since Tuvix didn't want to sacrifice his life, he was not worth of life.
Not true. Every Starfleet officer is worthy of life, but they may still be ordered to sacrifice themselves in the course of their duties. That doesn't make them worthless, it simply means they're doing their duty.
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2013, 11:05 PM   #675
cabby
Lieutenant
 
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
it was murder. Janeway took Tuvix's life away without his consent.
His consent is not required. Tuvix is still a member of the crew, and wanted to be treated as such. There are many instances where a military commander may order a subordinate to sacrifice his or her own life. Consent is not required.

cabby wrote: View Post
So if Janeway orders a crewmember to fire photon torpedos at a school bus of innocent children he has to follow orders?
No, because that would clearly be an illegal order.
So officers DO NOT have a duty to follow ALL orders which are given to them as stated above.

So explain to me how arbitrarily ordering a crew-member to their death in a non-emergency situation is legal.
cabby is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
janeway

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:06 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.