RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,413
Posts: 5,506,272
Members: 25,128
Currently online: 526
Newest member: Deidesheim

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 17 2013, 09:01 AM   #391
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
If an example had been made, a mass execution, maybe Durst and B'Elanna wouldn't have been murdered a couple weeks later.
I'm all for slaughter, but if that had happened we'd have been deprived of one of the greatest love stories in Trek... the touching tale of an alien Romeo who'd rip off his own face and replace it with that of his beloved's friend's corpse. It's so rare to find a man who'll go the extra mile to make a girl feel comfortable.
Tuvok ripped off Neelix's face, gluing it over the top of his own, so that he could sleep with Kes.

He failed.

But it's still an equal sentiment.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 17 2013, 09:13 AM   #392
spot_loves_data
Captain
 
spot_loves_data's Avatar
 
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Tuvok ripped off Neelix's face, gluing it over the top of his own, so that he could sleep with Kes.

He failed.

But it's still an equal sentiment.
Quite true. It looks like he used a few strips of brown packing tape to hang the face from his forehead. I can't decide if that's a weird prosthetic, bad make up or bad lighting.

spot_loves_data is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 17 2013, 09:19 AM   #393
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Vulcan hair follicles seem to be deathly allergic to Tallaxian hormones.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 17 2013, 02:54 PM   #394
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Well according to the episode already mention where Barclay was aware during transport no they are not.
^Non sequitur. That was a different debate with someone else. Unconscious people are transported all the time, and Picard was actually transported while dead then revived in sickbay.
If you're talking about tapestry no he wasn't he died on the table after they beamed him up.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
No not really, Tuvix materialized on the pad thus the transporter process is finished as in done, completed, no longer in process. you know the point you said they stopped trying at.
It's like you haven't seen the episode. Also, you're confusing me with someone else.

Far from giving up instantly, reversing the accident is the B plot for the rest of the episode.
I know which is why I know it also has nothing to do with the nonsense you were going on about.

Seriously, you need to remember the episode if you're going to debate it.
I remember the plot, I also rememebr how transporter accidents work unlike you.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 17 2013, 05:43 PM   #395
spot_loves_data
Captain
 
spot_loves_data's Avatar
 
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
If you're talking about tapestry no he wasn't he died on the table after they beamed him up.
No, I'm thinking about Who Watches The Watchers. The same thing happens to Harry Kim and an alien in Emanations. They were all dead, beamed, and revived. If you were trying to make the argument that people must retain consciousness during beaming, nope, sorry, not so much.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
It's like you haven't seen the episode. Also, you're confusing me with someone else.

Far from giving up instantly, reversing the accident is the B plot for the rest of the episode.
I know which is why I know it also has nothing to do with the nonsense you were going on about.
Uhhh... I'm not the one who thought the crew stopped trying to save Tuvok and Neelix the moment Tuvix appeared. That would be you. And it's plainly wrong. I'm also not the one disregarding dialogue, established character traits and precedent in favor of... personal fanfic? Spontaneous inspirations? Disjointed guess work? I'm not sure what to call it.

I remember the plot, I also rememebr how transporter accidents work unlike you.
Apparently not, as you seem to believe transporter accidents are irreversible by default.

Last edited by spot_loves_data; April 17 2013 at 05:58 PM.
spot_loves_data is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 17 2013, 06:10 PM   #396
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I know which is why I know it also has nothing to do with the nonsense you were going on about.
Uhhh... I'm not the one who thought the crew stopped trying to save Tuvok and Neelix the moment Tuvix appeared. That would be you. And it's plainly wrong. I'm also not the one disregarding dialogue, established character traits and precedent in favor of... personal fanfic? Spontaneous inspirations? Disjointed guess work? I'm not sure what to call it.
Okay let me be clear here I was responding to the whole people who transport are in stasis nonsense.

I am also saying that most of the transporter accidents shown on screen end after the rematerialization process has ended or they totally lose the signal which doesn't have shit to do with Tuvix after rematerialization process has completed. They are not dealing with a transporter malfunction they are dealing with reversing the aftermath, the accident is done, finished, completed. They are trying to reverse what the accident left them with.

And the characters did not know that Tuvix could be re-separated hence why they were trying to figure out if and how they could do that's why they kept doing experiment after experiment instead of just sticking Tuvix back into the transporter and getting Tuvok and Neelix back. Hell thats why Janeway used IF when asking Tuvix about separating him just after the accident.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 17 2013, 07:40 PM   #397
spot_loves_data
Captain
 
spot_loves_data's Avatar
 
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Okay let me be clear here I was responding to the whole people who transport are in stasis nonsense.
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Putting someone is stasis is sticking them in the pattern buffer until you re-materialize them.
Anyone in mid-transport fits your definition stasis - they're buffered and they have yet to rematerialize. These are all just fanciful sci-fi elements, but make up your mind about what you think they are.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
And the characters did not know that Tuvix could be re-separated hence why they were trying to figure out if and how they could do that's why they kept doing experiment after experiment...
So maybe we were watching the same episode after all. I agree there was doubt and hard work, but... so what? I'd say it supports my point that transporter accident victims aren't automatically presumed dead.

As for when the ordeal ends, that comes either with a clear fatality (a corpse, lost signal, etc.) or when the reset button has firmly been pressed. The rematerialization of anything other than the original people hasn't signaled a closure, at least not that I can recall.
spot_loves_data is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 17 2013, 11:29 PM   #398
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I think it should be noted that the transporter mishaps we've seen in Trek have probably tended to be exceptions rather than rules and probably tend to end better than typical transporter accidents given the confines of our perspective (i.e. they're not going to do an episode where a primary character dies in a transporter accident).
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 17 2013, 11:56 PM   #399
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The 29th century integration process drove Captain Braxton insane.

In Relativity, Janeway should have been compelled to separate the crazy Grandpa in Future's End from the hot guy at the very end who saved them, because the combined creature before them was poisonous and out to get her who deserved to live far less than the two men who helped her out in a time of bother.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 18 2013, 12:11 AM   #400
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
If you're talking about tapestry no he wasn't he died on the table after they beamed him up.
No, I'm thinking about Who Watches The Watchers. The same thing happens to Harry Kim and an alien in Emanations. They were all dead, beamed, and revived. If you were trying to make the argument that people must retain consciousness during beaming, nope, sorry, not so much.
You are confusing the status of being conscious (i.e., being awake) with the status of possessing consciousness (i.e., having a mind).

I would draw a distinction between clinical death and information-theoretic death. A person might be clinically dead, yet the information that comprises their personality still present in the brain and capable of re-activation if the clinical death (cardiac arrest, etc.) is reversed.

Tuvok and Neelix, I would argue, underwent information-theoretic death. The information that comprised their minds was disrupted; the systems which are their minds were terminated. A new system comprised of corrupted copies of that information was created -- Tuvix, and then Tuvok 2.0 and Neelix 2.0. But none of these three beings were the same information systems as the original Tuvok and Neelix.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 18 2013, 03:15 PM   #401
Sadara
Lieutenant Commander
 
Sadara's Avatar
 
Location: New Mexico
View Sadara's Twitter Profile Send a message via Yahoo to Sadara
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
So maybe we were watching the same episode after all. I agree there was doubt and hard work, but... so what? I'd say it supports my point that transporter accident victims aren't automatically presumed dead.

As for when the ordeal ends, that comes either with a clear fatality (a corpse, lost signal, etc.) or when the reset button has firmly been pressed. The rematerialization of anything other than the original people hasn't signaled a closure, at least not that I can recall.
This X a billion.
Sadara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 18 2013, 11:51 PM   #402
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The difference here is that the transporter accident created a new being. Who should have been afforded the same rights as any being in the Federation. How he came to be born is irrelevant. He had the same right to live as any other being, instead Janeway decided to murder him. If Tuvix had volunteered to undergo the reversal process so be it. But he wasn't given a choice.

And from a legal point of view, Janeway was emotional invested in the outcomming hardly impartial. Yes you can argue mitigating circumstances.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 12:28 AM   #403
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I wish Ransom had called her on this.

"So what, I picked off a few dumb animals, cattle for gods sake, but you murdered a Starfleet officer who asked you not to, when not once have any of these things I've been hunting had the force of will to say "We'd rather you not do this" because they're no smarter or civilized than a rabid badger."

Although if Tuvok was angry with her he wouldn't have gone back to the Resolutions planet to recover Kathy, and if Neelix was angry with her, then he would have sided with Seska in Basics... Or maybe that's why he killed Hogan? A subtle passive aggressive protest of how Kathryn treated him?
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 12:56 AM   #404
marksound
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Planet Carcazed
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Theoretically Tuvix still existed in the pattern buffer. If it served the story they could have found a way to bring him back. Then everyone would have had their happy ending.

But I suspect that Tuvix would have either suffered cellular deterioration and died anyway, or his annoyingly creepy behavior would have eventually caused the crew to throw him out an airlock.
marksound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19 2013, 01:52 AM   #405
Ho Ho Homeier
Vice Admiral
 
Ho Ho Homeier's Avatar
 
Location: Melakon's place
Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
. . .and if Neelix was angry with her, then he would have sided with Seska in Basics... Or maybe that's why he killed Hogan? A subtle passive aggressive protest of how Kathryn treated him?
Maybe he was pissing in her coffee.
__________________
Curly: Oh, you hit Santa Claus. Just for that, no toys! --Wee Wee Monsieur (1938)
Ho Ho Homeier is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
janeway

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:40 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.