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Old April 16 2013, 08:46 PM   #331
BillJ
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Sorry, but playing god with people's lives is not "simple numbers game" or a game at all, and it's either right or wrong. Where they are is inconsequential.
Decisions are driven everyday by the circumstance in which an individual exists.

It's dishonest to say life-and-death decisions aren't driven by numbers and by circumstance. The whole point of Troi's command test was that she may have to pick someone to die so others can live.

Everyday doctors have to pick candidates that qualify for liver transplants leaving others to die. You don't think circumstance drives those decisions?
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Old April 16 2013, 08:47 PM   #332
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Indeed, it's certainly easier to go along with Janeway's decision if you assume that Tuvix was little more than a parasite, as opposed to a fully sentient being with the right to self-determination.

Data was a collection of parts, the EMH was a trick of the light.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:49 PM   #333
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

BillJ wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Sorry, but playing god with people's lives is not "simple numbers game" or a game at all, and it's either right or wrong. Where they are is inconsequential.
Decisions are driven everyday by the circumstance in which an individual exists.

It's dishonest to say life-and-death decisions aren't driven by numbers. The whole point of Troi's command test was that she may have to pick someone to die so others can live.
Troi's command test was bollocks anyhow. "In order to win, you must sentence this holographic recreation of your actual friend to death!"

I would have been a lot more impressed if they'd rigged it so that she didn't know it was a simulation and had been bothered by her choice after the fact.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:54 PM   #334
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

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If it's really just a numbers "game", then it's ironic that Janeway, who pushed so hard to uphold Starfleet ideals (most of the time), would be so willing to look the other way at a time when executing a sentient being was involved.

Though it would have been hilarious if she threw this in the faces of those who encouraged her to show more flexibility.
Yeah... watching the Phage when Janeway gives that long winded speech about how evolved humanity is and they're beyond even considering something so barbaric when confronted with the possibility of killing the Viidian to get Neelix's lungs back is amusing when you consider this episode.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:57 PM   #335
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

"I picked up a few tricks from our Vidiian friends. Now submit to the procedure. Resistance is futile. ...oops, wrong hostile race!"
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Old April 16 2013, 08:57 PM   #336
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Just because he was brought into being in a manner that's different from us doesn't invalidate his life or give him any less rights than anyone else. Frankly that's a bit disturbing that you so casually remark that just because someone's different they're less of a person. But it's a common theme in humanity to dehumanize anyone to rationalize their death in their mind.
My position has always been that Janeway has an obligation to the lives of her crew, and to do what's best for the ship. It's not a question of whether it's "right" based on human rights moralities, but whether it's to the benefit of the ship.
Disclosure: I have never been a parent, so this undoubtedly affects how I view the issue.
I've never been a parent either, however I do come from a long line of people who were viewed as less than human and which was used to justify their extermination.

This rationale has been used to justify genocide through the centuries.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:59 PM   #337
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sadara wrote: View Post
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Perhaps Tuvok's family would be more... forgiving of the choice to leave Tuvix as is,
well considering they probably already thought he was dead at the time....
So that justifies not bringing Tuvok back?
Nobody brought Tuvok back. Tuvok's gone. They created a copy of Tuvok; they did not resurrect him.
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Old April 16 2013, 08:59 PM   #338
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^^Indeed. "It's for the greater good" is insufficient when we're talking about killing a sentient being.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:03 PM   #339
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sci wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

well considering they probably already thought he was dead at the time....
So that justifies not bringing Tuvok back?
Nobody brought Tuvok back. Tuvok's gone. They created a copy of Tuvok; they did not resurrect him.
DonIago wrote: View Post
^^Indeed. "It's for the greater good" is insufficient when we're talking about killing a sentient being.
If everyone is simply a copy of a past self when they step off the transporter pad, then it clearly is a numbers game.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:04 PM   #340
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

DonIago wrote: View Post

Data was a collection of parts, the EMH was a trick of the light.
Missed this part...

Data's a toaster, the EMH a CPU generated figure. Nothing more.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:05 PM   #341
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

DonIago wrote: View Post
^^Indeed. "It's for the greater good" is insufficient when we're talking about killing a sentient being.
Exactly. It's really very simple:

Tuvok and Neelix are dead and are never coming back. Tuvix is a sentient being, with equal claim to the rights the Federation recognizes and guarantees for all sentient beings -- including the right to live. Tuvix can be killed, but Tuvok and Neelix cannot be resurrected, only copied. So the choice is between respecting an innocent man's right to live, or killing him in order to create two new people who remind us of people who are already dead.

I've never been a parent, but I gotta say, I don't think I would kill an innocent man just to create a new copy of an already-dead son or daughter.

ETA:

BillJ wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post

So that justifies not bringing Tuvok back?
Nobody brought Tuvok back. Tuvok's gone. They created a copy of Tuvok; they did not resurrect him.
DonIago wrote: View Post
^^Indeed. "It's for the greater good" is insufficient when we're talking about killing a sentient being.
If everyone is simply a copy of a past self when they step off the transporter pad, then it clearly is a numbers game.
Once again, this argument has already been refuted. A properly-functioning transporter ensures continuity of consciousness -- the same person steps off the transporter pad who stepped onto it, and was merely transformed into still-conscious energy temporarily. Tuvok and Neelix did not experience continuity of consciousness -- their consciousnesses were ended and a new one created.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:06 PM   #342
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Yes you could. If you were a parent you would do it without blinking.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:06 PM   #343
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Nah, I don't buy the transporter "killing" you simply because Barclay showed it was an uninterrupted stream of consciousness in Realm of Fear(though it would make sense why he's so afraid of the things! ). Though in another thread there was theory that in Faces when Torres was split into two people, that the original one was killed then copied by proxy. I guess the same logic could be applied in reverse here.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:10 PM   #344
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Yes you could. If you were a parent you would do it without blinking.
You know what bugs me? People who think they know what someone else would do. They don't; the fact of the matter is, parental love motivates a lot of different, sometimes conflicting, behaviors in people. Parents do not all react the same way to the same circumstances just because they are parents.

And no, I would not "do it without blinking." If I had a son, I rather think he would be ashamed of me if I were to kill an innocent person to create a copy of him -- not resurrect him; create a copy, a separate, different person who happens to merely possess his traits. To commit such a murder would be to profoundly dishonor his memory.
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Old April 16 2013, 09:12 PM   #345
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The "uninterrupted stream of consciousness" argument is incredibly flawed. How can such a thing exist when your brain is disassembled and converted to energy at the subatomic level?
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