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Old April 9 2013, 01:52 PM   #76
{ Emilia }
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

EmoBorg wrote: View Post
I am a social liberal and a fiscal conservative. I am not afraid to say that I liked Thatcher. She had more "balls" than any politicians both on the left and right during her time. You may or may not agree with her policies but she was certainly a person of great determination and had the strength of character to pursue her sometimes unpopular policies. She was certainly the UK greatest peacetime PM in my opinion.
Showing great determination, balls and strong character aren't really things that tend to impress me if they are used to pursue shitty policies.
They're just secondary values.

"I'm really dedicated to making the world a shithole! Isn't that awesome!?! I'm totally trying hard!"

See the issue?

It's like praising people who made mistakes for being "consistent" about it.

"Ron Paul is a complete nutter with shitty ideas but at least he's consistent, you gotta admire that."
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Old April 9 2013, 02:35 PM   #77
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

The funeral is next week - the big question for me is - can I still dodge a baton round?
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Old April 9 2013, 03:46 PM   #78
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

Ugh, there's a time and a place to make a point, and a funeral is not it.

There will be people genuinely grieving, although I won't be amongst them, but just leave them to it.
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Old April 9 2013, 04:20 PM   #79
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

I have no sympathy for what she did to the IRA movement ( the detainment, killing and torture of terrorists have always and will always happen, and she was relatively restrained by post-9/11 standards) and she did not intentionally start the Falklands War on a shaky to non-existent reason, however her support of vicious regimes and over zealous stripping down of obsolete UK industries (with nothing to fill the vacuum) seem less justifiable.

Her privatisation, banking, service sector, and council house policies worked well enough through the 80s, 90s, & early 00s, but in recent years have hit a wall.

Who we really need right now is a more humane and economically leftwing Thatcher.
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Old April 9 2013, 05:29 PM   #80
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

Ultimately, no politician can please everyone. Each of them make mistakes, some more painful than others. And only some of them make notable achievements. If a politician does no wrong but also nothing notably good, they fade into obscurity.

A lot of the hate rhetoric for Thatcher seems centered around British policies in dealings with the other territories, namely Scotland and Ireland. It took a very long time to stabilize things and along the way, there were people seriously upset on all sides. Nobody likes to compromise. And when looking at things in retrospect, there's always a perceived better way to have handled them. Did her policies help pave the way towards eventual stability? Or were there many corrections necessary to "undo" what she'd done?

What's most difficult to know is if policies that make things more uncomfortable for a period of time are a necessary step towards eventually making improvements. There always has to be sacrifice made somewhere. It must take extremely skilled and thoughtful analysts to comb through all the data and make objective assessments as to the cause and effects of policies, determining what worked well and what didn't.

But then you have people who have made up their mind on how they see things and will select choice bits here and there to support their view, ignoring anything else that may contradict it.

Take the sinking of the General Belgrano. It was outside the zone of exclusion by just over 30 miles when attacked. But if you look at the maps of their course, it was mostly straight along the southern perimeter, until the last few hours before it sunk. It was switch backing, approaching the zone, then moving away from it, then approaching again. It looked like it was "daring" to enter the zone, heading for it and then veering off, only to repeat it again. There didn't appear to be any good reason for it be on such a course other than to antagonize the British. But given the stealth and speed of the HMS Conqueror (the sub that sunk the Belgrano), wouldn't one torpedo have been enough? Partially damage the ship and let it limp back home? Or was the order to sink it outright?

So Thatcher gets a call from the Royal Navy, saying how there's this Argentinian destroyer testing the exclusion zone southern boundary and that there's concern on what it might do next. She was probably advised that the prudent thing to do is treat the vessel as having violated the spirit of the exclusion zone. Was she a war monger? I highly doubt it. It was regrettable that over 300 crew members died, but thankfully far more were rescued. If she was really so vicious, she would have ordered the ship's destruction with orders for there to be no survivors. Clearly, this was not the case. But, for anyone hating Thatcher, it's easy to twist it around and make it look like she was viciously insensitive.

I do sometimes wonder if she was as uncompromising as she was to compensate for her being the first female PM. Was she a more approachable and warm person off camera? I wonder if we'll ever get to see or hear informal recordings of her personal interactions with other politicians made off mainstream camera. It would certainly give us more insight into her character.
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Old April 9 2013, 07:42 PM   #81
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

The reason the Left hate her so much is because she utterly and completely defeated them. Even the Labour Party had to move to a centre-right position thanks to her.
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Old April 9 2013, 08:32 PM   #82
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

Indeed.Thatcher herself acknowledged that her greatest legacy was New Labour.

As an old-time lefty myself I had zero respect for Thatcher or her policies which were (to say the least)divisive.
To me though,the over riding sense I got from her was her hubris,arrogance and determination to never be seen to be wrong.Fatal flaws in any human being,calamitous in any politician.
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Old April 10 2013, 12:13 AM   #83
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

Sam_I_Am wrote: View Post
The reason the Left hate her so much is because she utterly and completely defeated them. Even the Labour Party had to move to a centre-right position thanks to her.
The fact that Labour had to move more towards the centre and become New Labour says a lot about the British electorate in so much as both major powers are near the centre is that we are a centrist people, stray to far to the right or the left and you can make yourself unelectable. (This could in part explain why the UK is one of the more euro-sceptic countries, in that we don't like polices that are too far along one side of the political spectrum).
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Old April 10 2013, 08:59 AM   #84
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

Starkers wrote: View Post
junxon wrote: View Post
ambitious and flawed? yes. evil and her death a cause for celebration? no.

"margaret fucking thatcher! she's only in power because a majority of the country keep voting for her!"
- what the 'edgy' 80's standup comedians never said
I love that!
Why? It's completely wrong - she was *never* voted for by a majority of the country but then she never needed to be because we have a FPTP system.
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Old April 10 2013, 09:08 AM   #85
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

"She" was never voted for by anyone, actually
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Old April 10 2013, 09:34 AM   #86
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

Apart from the constituents of Finchley, that is, and members of the Conservative and Unionist Party.
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Old April 10 2013, 09:38 AM   #87
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

Well, Finchley yes, but obviously we are only talking about the General Election. I'm sure she has taken part in numerous things that required voting for her at various points in her life, as have most people.
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Old April 10 2013, 10:43 AM   #88
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

Joe Zhang, first of all i was making a joke. and you know if you had voted consevative then, thatcher would be pm.

like today if there was a general election you vote labour and they win, miliband would be pm. so don't go all outraged on me
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Old April 10 2013, 10:54 AM   #89
Pingfah
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

I'm sure we can all just agree that Thatcher had as much of a mandate to govern as any other PM.

There has only been one GE since she left power where the winning party has had more of the popular vote than she achieved during any of her 3 wins. Her popularity at the polls is certainly not in question.
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Old April 10 2013, 11:20 AM   #90
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Re: Margaret Thatcher dead at 87

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
The funeral is next week - the big question for me is - can I still dodge a baton round?
Aging sucks sometimes, go for the glory...
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