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Old April 10 2013, 03:53 PM   #16
R. Star
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
anyone read the novel "neverending sacrifice"

Its pretty dark at times.
I've been meaning to, I hear it's quite good, but I haven't gotten to it yet. Just the visual on the cover is quite... morbid and sets a tone all by itself.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:43 AM   #17
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
It is interesting how they make the exact opposite decision in that episode as Picard did with Jono. This implies to me that the decision in that episode arose out of 'Human guilt' rather than moral imperative.
Although in Jono's case, his human parents were both dead.

Sisko returned Rugal to Cardassia because Kotan Pa'Dar was still alive. Jono had no biological parents to return to.
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Old April 13 2013, 06:54 PM   #18
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

Dal Rassak wrote: View Post
The allegations came from that one odd-looking alien playing dabo in Quark's bar and we never learn his motivations. Rugal's adoptive father vehemently denied them and before anyone says, "well, he would if they're true" , Rugal's behaviour showed where the truth lay very eloquently - he ran to Proka embracing him and was visibly distressed when it looked as though they were going to be seperated. That's not how you react to someone who's mistreated you.
Actually there are a ton of children in abusive families who would probably have a hard time ever leaving them, just because it's all they know, and because they've come to think of the abuse as "normal" or "deserved." It's possible Rugal was in one of those (and I have to admit his Bajoran father didn't exactly seem like the nicest fellow).

Still, on the face of it I have to agree Sisko's decision seems to be the wrong one. Without any actual proof of abuse, I would think you'd have to err on the side of letting the kid stay where he wants.

Although to be fair... we've also seen real world cases where a kid was stolen from their mother at a young age and then returned years later. Regardless of how attached the kid becomes to this other family, the parent STILL deserves to have their kid back.
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Old April 13 2013, 07:37 PM   #19
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

I didn't mean to imply that the Proka family was physically abusive towards Rugal or that they didn't love him. They weren't, and they did. But I also think it's very likely that they purposely imbued Rugal with prejudice against his own race. Not to stick it to Rugal himself, but to the entire Cardassian people. Raising a Cardassian child to hate the Cardassian race could be seen as the ultimate form of revenge for a Bajoran family.

That being said, given the choice of the actor to play Kotan Pa'Dar...

These are the Prokas.

These are the Pa'Dars.

This is Captain Sisko.

And this is...SOAP.


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Old April 14 2013, 10:33 AM   #20
Kira Nerys
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

I have never understood why Rugal's feelings were not considered in making the decision of where he would live .This was the episode where I started to dislike the character of Sisko.
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Old June 28 2013, 12:59 AM   #21
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

Were I the judge, I'd normally rule in the favor of the adoptive family. However, the fact that Rugal was kidnapped trumps all. If a child was kidnapped from a human family and 15 years later found living with another family, I imagine the biological parents have a claim on them.

Because it was a wrong done to them.
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Old June 28 2013, 01:37 AM   #22
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

^ Agreed. Kotan Pa'Dar is as much an innocent party to all of this as Rugal is. There is no real indication that Kotan would be an unfit parent, or that he wasn't hurt by what had happened. Kotan clearly loved his son and was devastated at being rejected by him.

And Rugal was indeed kidnapped - used as a pawn by Dukat.
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Old June 28 2013, 07:39 AM   #23
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
I was always mindful of Sisko's and Picard's differing decisions.

Here, Sisko has a Cardassian child raised by the enemy and ultimately returns the Cardassian to his home.

Picard has a human child raised by the enemy in "Suddenly Human" and tries to return the child to his home... but then stops and lets the child remain with the only family he's ever known.
I wonder if Sisko may have sympathized with the biological father because, unlike Picard, he was a father himself.

I too thought the boy should have been allowed to remain with his adopted family.
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Old June 28 2013, 07:56 AM   #24
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

davejames wrote: View Post
Dal Rassak wrote: View Post
The allegations came from that one odd-looking alien playing dabo in Quark's bar and we never learn his motivations. Rugal's adoptive father vehemently denied them and before anyone says, "well, he would if they're true" , Rugal's behaviour showed where the truth lay very eloquently - he ran to Proka embracing him and was visibly distressed when it looked as though they were going to be seperated. That's not how you react to someone who's mistreated you.
Actually there are a ton of children in abusive families who would probably have a hard time ever leaving them, just because it's all they know, and because they've come to think of the abuse as "normal" or "deserved." It's possible Rugal was in one of those (and I have to admit his Bajoran father didn't exactly seem like the nicest fellow).

Still, on the face of it I have to agree Sisko's decision seems to be the wrong one. Without any actual proof of abuse, I would think you'd have to err on the side of letting the kid stay where he wants.

Although to be fair... we've also seen real world cases where a kid was stolen from their mother at a young age and then returned years later. Regardless of how attached the kid becomes to this other family, the parent STILL deserves to have their kid back.
Well, I think that he was abused. There are different types of abuse, and these "parents," loving as they seemed, raised that boy to hate himself, and to practically carry around a hugely heavy guilt pretty much just for being born Cardassian.

I felt so sorry for that child. What they did to him was wrong. They should have taught him what his people did, and that it was very wrong and that it should never happen again, BUT raising the child to despise his people and therefore himself was wrong on their part. Perhaps their hearts were in the right place, but it was clear that their hearts hadn't healed form what had been done to Bajorans (perhaps they couldn't heal), but that wasn't this child's fault...

I think Sisko was right to give him back to the family, and father, that wanted him and that could teach him to have some self esteem in spite of the poorer aspects of his people's history.

prizzm wrote: View Post
SchwEnt wrote: View Post
I was always mindful of Sisko's and Picard's differing decisions.

Here, Sisko has a Cardassian child raised by the enemy and ultimately returns the Cardassian to his home.

Picard has a human child raised by the enemy in "Suddenly Human" and tries to return the child to his home... but then stops and lets the child remain with the only family he's ever known.
I wonder if Sisko may have sympathized with the biological father because, unlike Picard, he was a father himself.

I too thought the boy should have been allowed to remain with his adopted family.
I don't think he should have stayed with them for reasons stated above, but I do agree that Sisko probably did make his decision in part because he was a father too. He knew how unhealthy that boy's upbringing had been and also how damaging it was to him. Just because his people did something very horrible didn't mean that he needed to suffer psychological abuse under the guise of loving intentions.

Sisko was right.
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Old June 28 2013, 02:54 PM   #25
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

I don't think he should have stayed with them for reasons stated above, but I do agree that Sisko probably did make his decision in part because he was a father too. He knew how unhealthy that boy's upbringing had been and also how damaging it was to him. Just because his people did something very horrible didn't mean that he needed to suffer psychological abuse under the guise of loving intentions.
Of course, a part of me worried about what sort of upbringing he'd have on Cardassia.

Stay with loving but dysfunctional family or learn to be a Space Fascist.
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Old June 28 2013, 04:00 PM   #26
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
I don't think he should have stayed with them for reasons stated above, but I do agree that Sisko probably did make his decision in part because he was a father too. He knew how unhealthy that boy's upbringing had been and also how damaging it was to him. Just because his people did something very horrible didn't mean that he needed to suffer psychological abuse under the guise of loving intentions.
Of course, a part of me worried about what sort of upbringing he'd have on Cardassia.

Stay with loving but dysfunctional family or learn to be a Space Fascist.
I would call his Bajoran family, loving, but dysfunctionally abusive. I thought about his Cardassian family too, and I don't think we can be sure that his father, and the rest of his family, were "Space Fascists." Not all Cardassians were like that, so that's stereotyping them, which is also an unhealthy practice.

I like how the episodes regarding Kira's stereotyping of Cardassians in roughly the same way addressed this. Her "father," was anything but a Space Fascist. Far from it...
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Old June 28 2013, 07:15 PM   #27
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

This episode slightly reminiscent of the Elian Gonzalez affair. I think the episode came first, though, didn't it?
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Old June 28 2013, 07:33 PM   #28
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

Spock/Uhura Fan wrote: View Post
OI would call his Bajoran family, loving, but dysfunctionally abusive. I thought about his Cardassian family too, and I don't think we can be sure that his father, and the rest of his family, were "Space Fascists." Not all Cardassians were like that, so that's stereotyping them, which is also an unhealthy practice.

I like how the episodes regarding Kira's stereotyping of Cardassians in roughly the same way addressed this. Her "father," was anything but a Space Fascist. Far from it...
I feel like Godwinning here, however it would be relevant because said organization was an explicit inspiration for the Cardassians. The father, in question, seems like a loving man to his child--no question. However, he was a member of the occupation forces and a political rival to Dukat who was involved the genocide of 7 million Bajorans. Either way, they're reparating a child raised in both the Bajoran faith and Bajoran lifestyle to a totalitarian dictatorship with a hostility to that religion.

This is before the Cardassian civilian government overthrows the military and at a time when arrest=guilt.
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Old June 28 2013, 07:39 PM   #29
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

It would have been interesting plot twist in S7 to have had news reach Sisko somehow that Rugal had been one of the many Cardassian victims when the Dominion turned on Cardassia. Therefore Sisko would have to deal with the hindsight guilt of knowing that if Rugal had been allowed to stay on Bajor, he would likely have not been killed (unless a bajoran nationalist got hold of him).
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Old June 28 2013, 07:40 PM   #30
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Re: decision regarding Rugal incomprehensible!

Dal Rassak wrote: View Post
...Rugal's behaviour showed where the truth lay very eloquently - he ran to Proka embracing him and was visibly distressed when it looked as though they were going to be seperated. That's not how you react to someone who's mistreated you.
Psychology tells us that this, in fact, is how you might react to someone who mistreats you. Particularly when their constant insults towards your kind have convinced you that you DESERVE this kind of treatment.


You can't own a child like a possession
This is not about ownership. The child does not have the maturity to make this kind of a decision. Particularly a child who has been told that his identity is "wrong".

Pa'Dar does not have to own his child to make a decision in his best interest.


I'm absolutely certain they had no intention whatsoever to damage Rugal psychologically in any way - they just couldn't help how they felt.
I don't know that I would say that anyone ever has the intention to damage their children psychologically, but that doesn't seem to stop them from abusing them.

I can't really speak to Cardassia or Bajor, but I don't know of any Canadian court that would return a child to abusive parents on the basis that they did not intentionally abuse their child.

Kids don't want to do a lot of things. That's why adults make decisions for them. What the child wants in this situation is irrelevant. The adults are stepping in to make sure he gets what he needs.
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