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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 8 2013, 04:06 PM   #16
Dal Rassak
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Re: Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?

Yes and no. The announcement came as the sort of surprise that makes you think in retrospect that it was actually quite predictable.
I loved the moment when that bombshell was dropped!, in fact I cheered. I thought to myself, right, he's back on course now. I really didn't like Dukat that much during seasons 3 and 4. I prefer him when he's being a bastard. It's more convincing. He doesn't do "Mr. nice guy" very well and it doesn't suit him.
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Old April 8 2013, 04:26 PM   #17
Use of Time
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Re: Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?

It was great for the show with a nice twist but I just don't think Gul Dukat would be that shortsighted. There is no way in the world he is stupid enough to think the Dominion would allow Cardassia a piece of the pie after the war with the other Alpha Quadrant powers. Even if he did know that the Dominion was just using them, did he really think they could handle the Dominion after the Federation war was over? I don't know, to me Gul Dukat is a survivor. Specifically, someone that has survived by having a knack for anticipating which way the wind was blowing. I just don't think his character would be that dumb regardless of how much he wanted to regain Cardassia to power. It would be more likely that he would try to start something with the other Alpha Quadrant powers after the Dominion war while the other powers were weakened.
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Old April 8 2013, 05:05 PM   #18
Dal Rassak
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Re: Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?

I don't think it was stupidity on his part as such, but overconfidence (which can lead you to making stupid decisions). I'm pretty sure he believed Cardassia (i.e., him) could keep a handle on the Dominioin. Re-establish your pre-eminence by making a pact with a powerful ally. When you've achieved the desired victory, turn on your ally. There was this plan to eliminate the Jem'Hadar by doing something to their white supply, if I remember rightly - which Damar had some details of on his PADD, which Rom then made sure got into the hands of the Jem'Hadar - which was the reason for that almighty bust-up in Quark's bar.
Also I honestly think his thirst for glory and power made him shortsighted in this instance. He couldn't think past the personal vindication of getting "his" station back.
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Old April 8 2013, 06:34 PM   #19
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Re: Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?

Yes, he has been overconfident at times but Dukat wasn't generally impulsive. He was a very deliberate man. He was always in a position working behind the scenes so as take credit when he could but also escape blame. Joining the Dominion openly and putting his name out there as the guy responsible is just not his style. Way too risky. I can see a guy like Gul Evek being more willing to do something like that. I just feel like a Cardassia that was generally weekened anyway at this point should have known that they had nothing for the Dominion in terms of strength after another prolonged conflict with the Federation. This is a Cardassia that had been in recent conflict with the Federation, then the Maquis and considerable damage from the Klingon invasion force. I could have seen Cardassia as the lone power refusing to join the Alpha Quadrant powers and then stirring the pot once the Dominion was taken care of.
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Old April 8 2013, 08:44 PM   #20
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Re: Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?

I always figured months operating as a guerrilla very similar to the ones he used to despise, coupled with the weakness of Cardassia is what inspired Dukat to seek out the Dominion. Both of these disgusted him and ate at him and it was only a matter of time before looking for a way to return to glory, even at a high price, seemed attractive to him.
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Old April 8 2013, 08:51 PM   #21
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Re: Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?

...Or, for the flip side of that coin, his guerrilla years (months?) taught him that he could pursue his own ambitions even when pretending to ally himself with others. The experiences would also have seasoned him to thinking that his allies, while thinking of themselves as powerful, were actually weaklings that Dukat could exploit at his leisure. (That last bit would be pure hubris, of course, but that's classic Dukat.)

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Old April 8 2013, 10:55 PM   #22
HaventGotALife
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Re: Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?

JediKnightButler wrote: View Post
Did anybody like that it seemed to come out of nowhere? I mean, in retrospect, it seems like something that an opportunist like Dukat would do under the right circumstances- and the events of S4, specifically, the overthrow of the Central Command, the Klingon invasion of Cardassia, his demotion to freighter captain, his disillusionment about his government's weakness against the Klingons certainly laid the groundwork for his desire for Cardassia to join with the Dominion to make it "strong" and "proud" again- but would it have been interesting in seeing Dukat meet with the Dominion or were we better off not knowing before it actually happened? It does make you wonder how he contacted the Dominion and began his "negotiations"?
I was 13 at the time he did this. It did catch me off-guard. But I have said (as an adult) that, whether it was done for ratings or not (bringing in the Klingons as antagonists), it makes perfect sense in a show about oppression to have a race that wants to be "strong again" by hooking up with the Dominion. They did a good job leading this story where it needed to go and make perfect sense (while saying something about the world in which we live). Remembering that the Klingons and Federation were the only threats, having a changeling in charge of all of it, but not making the decisions, was perfect. It's one of the things I really like about the 4-5 seasons. This looks well-planned.
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Old April 15 2013, 07:35 AM   #23
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Re: Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?

Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?
I was this--> surprised followed by being this--> what the f***?. Why do you think I went from liking him to hating him? Up to that point, I liked him. I think I was even developing a bit of a crush on him. Then he went and did that and fell out of my favor faster than any member of this forum can type: fell out of my favor. He regained a little of my favor when Damar killed Ziyal. Didn't last long. Once he quit having those hallucinations he was having in Waltz and regained his composure, he lost my favor...AGAIN.
All that said, I still like him better than Damar. I have NOT forgiven Damar for Ziyal.
And before anyone brings up the subject of Jadzia's death...I'm not really mad at Dukat for killing Jadzia. Now I'm gonna tell you why, and split hairs doing it. Technically it was that Pah-Wraith that was in Dukat at the time that killed Jadzia. Based on Dukat's behavior and tone of voice when he went over to and spoke to an unconscious Jadzia after that Pah-Wraith left him, I don't think he meant to hurt her but he just couldn't control that Pah-Wraith at all like he probably thought he could.
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Old April 15 2013, 02:18 PM   #24
Dal Rassak
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Re: Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?

If you think it was an impulsive decision, Use of Time, you haven't paid attention.
When Dukat makes the announcement he actually states that the alliance was made after he "conducted long, secret negotiations". Some planning definitely went into this. (Having said that, he was by no means beyond impulsive acts on occasion, especially when he was being thwarted, or became infuriated.)
And think of - if it had all gone to plan, he'd have become the national hero. Plus the alliance allowed him to take up position as Cardassia's leader. How could a man as power-hungry as that resist? It's the ultimate prize!

DISAGREE ENTIRELY with above remark re.: Damar and Ziyal.
From where Damar was standing, he didn't murder some innocent girl, he executed a traitor. She collaborated with the enemy, she shared responsibility for the weapons system being down when it was needed in defence of the station. She betrayed her father and so cost him, and by that token Cardassia, an historic victory. Dukat should have recognized who was really loyal to him at that point, and come back to his senses. He should have thanked Damar if anything.
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Old April 15 2013, 02:28 PM   #25
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Re: Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?

We hear a lot about how Cardassians do two things much better, or at least much more intensely, than any human: family values and loyalty.

It's very difficult to show any of this supposedly alien behavior on screen. How does a man in scaly makeup put a greater value on his daughter than a man without? At least we got some examples of the totalitarian life on Cardassian worlds, with people living in fear of authorities, turning each other in, and so forth, even if we didn't get good examples of anybody actually sacrificing his life (or his fortunes or his future or whatever) for the good of the state. But in the end, we were left with nothing but hearsay on how these two Cardassian passions would balance out when conflicted.

...Until "Tears of the Prophets" and its aftermath, that is. We saw how a philandering and self-centered Cardassian husband went crazy when a young woman who wasn't even fully Cardassian was rightly executed for her atrocities against the Cardassian loyalty code, just because that woman happened to have some genes from said man. It's really an "irresistible force encounters immovable obstacle" type of thing, a fundamentally implausible (or at least alien) situation where all outcomes thus are plausible by default. What we see is what we get, and quite well may be what we'd have gotten had some other Cardassian killed the daughter of yet another Cardassian, regardless of their personality traits and other quirks.

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Old April 15 2013, 05:24 PM   #26
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Re: Was anybody surprised by Dukat striking a deal with the Dominion?

We really see the two aspects quite well in Favor the Bold/Sacrifice of Angels with Dukat and Ziyal's relationship. Dukat clearly cares about Ziyal to the point of being blind to the threat she represents even though Damar sees it coming clear as day. The funny thing is, the same speech Dukat gave to Ziyal about Rom being an enemy of the state, and enemies of the state deserve what they get, is exactly the same logic Damar used when he shot Ziyal. I'd say that conflict within Dukat slamming home so hard is what caused Dukat to break more than Sisko beating him.
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