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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old April 11 2013, 03:05 AM   #76
Harvey
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

Marsden wrote: View Post
foxhot wrote: View Post
Does this mean that GLW informed Nimoy about the incident? (No other co-stars?) So much time's passed I only remember the incident itself from her book.
I'm interested in that answer, too.

How would HE know and no one else?
The answer to that is in Whitney's memoir, which (unfortunately) I don't have on hand to quote from. My copy is in another state.
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Old April 11 2013, 01:19 PM   #77
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

Thank you, Harvey.

I see it now, I was worried he was involved somehow and I'm happy he wasn't.
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Old April 11 2013, 05:43 PM   #78
not
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

Harvey wrote: View Post
Marsden wrote: View Post
foxhot wrote: View Post
Does this mean that GLW informed Nimoy about the incident? (No other co-stars?) So much time's passed I only remember the incident itself from her book.
I'm interested in that answer, too.

How would HE know and no one else?
The answer to that is in Whitney's memoir, which (unfortunately) I don't have on hand to quote from. My copy is in another state.
Marsden wrote: View Post
Thank you, Harvey.

I see it now, I was worried he was involved somehow and I'm happy he wasn't.
Google "The Full Body Project" and you get a view of Leonard Nimoy's compassionate nature.

I read an artist’s photography blog that Nimoy commented on (or was it another art) and he was encouraging to the artist –(of course, she had no clue who he was) but it led me to look at is pictures and read his photographic intent. I can see he only wants women to feel good about themselves.

I can’t help speculate if Leonard Nimoy's art is atonement for guilt; did he give advice to Grace Lee Whitney that in retrospect haunts him?
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Old April 11 2013, 08:32 PM   #79
not
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
I...the number two spot was the inter-racial kiss between Kirk and Uhura from "Plato's Stepchildren", and it was being hailed as an advancement. I could never get behind that notion.

Why?

Because it is painfully clear in the episode that neither Kirk nor Uhura were acting of their own free-will. They were forced, and that it is, by every definition, rape! It was, in fact, made worse by imagery of a white-on-black rape ...

So again, why is it celebrated? Was it truly a positive depiction? Did it really break a barrier? ...
1001001 wrote: View Post
"Rape" is most assuredly not the correct word.

You're correct about the story, but I imagine they simply gave themselves an "out" story-wise to make it more palatable to the masses.

He kissed her, but he didn't really kiss her.

Still, in context of the time, it was a brave decision to shoot that scene, so I'll give them a little credit.
Networks were subject to Broadcast Standards and Practices and I've come to realize the "rape" aspect was just the writer's attempt to appease and avoid censorship of an interracial relationship. After all, these popular characters were not going against 60's societal norms, they were being forced against their own wills


Ergo, the "rape" responsibility was never theirs but their mind controllers
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Old April 11 2013, 09:15 PM   #80
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

not wrote: View Post
Networks were subject to Broadcast Standards and Practices and I've come to realize the "rape" aspect was just the writer's attempt to appease and avoid censorship of an interracial relationship. After all, these popular characters were not going against 60's societal norms, they were being forced against their own wills


Ergo, the "rape" responsibility was never theirs but their mind controllers
I stated that in my post. I said Kirk was just as much a victim as Uhura thereby placing the full responsibility on the Platonions.

And in skirting Standards & Practices those in-charge undermined their own efforts. "Free will" is everything in something like this and without it you cannot claim any social victory. Did african-americans sit at home and view that scene as a sign of social progress? Did african-american women? Did women in general? Whose cause was forwarded by that? It sure wasn't any civil-rights victory.

The meaning attached to the Kirk-Uhura kiss was always and will always be a sad grab for PR and contrived relevance. Which is shame because of all the other real contributions it gave us.

I mean: Uhura's presence was a positive for millions, no-doubt about that. As was George Takei's appearances. TOS championed a lot of progressive ideas, but let us be honest about it so as not to diminish them is my point.
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Old April 11 2013, 10:24 PM   #81
not
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
not wrote: View Post
Networks were subject to Broadcast Standards and Practices and I've come to realize the "rape" aspect was just the writer's attempt to appease and avoid censorship of an interracial relationship...
I stated that in my post. I said Kirk was just as much a victim as Uhura thereby placing the full responsibility on the Platonions.

And in skirting Standards & Practices those in-charge undermined their own efforts. "Free will" is everything in something like this and without it you cannot claim any social victory. Did african-americans sit at home and view that scene as a sign of social progress? Did african-american women? Did women in general? Whose cause was forwarded by that? It sure wasn't any civil-rights victory.

...

TOS championed a lot of progressive ideas, but let us be honest about it so as not to diminish them is my point.
I think many like minded did see this scene as a sign of progress, and not because of their race but because of the time.

I think it would be very telling to read the 60's news headlines (when the piece was written, not broadcast) to better understand the writer's POV.


Yes, I understood your point that it was neither's responsibility
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Old April 11 2013, 10:49 PM   #82
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

not wrote: View Post
I think many like minded did see this scene as a sign of progress, and not because of their race but because of the time.
You make a very good distinction and I find your take very interesting and well-said.

I think it would be very telling to read the 60's news headlines (when the piece was written, not broadcast) to better understand the writer's POV.
I hope others will contribute on this, but the glorification of "the kiss," according to my recollection, didn't really spark much coverage or applause at the time. Plato's Stepchildren was not nominated for any awards (not even a Hugo). The significance of "the kiss" didn't seem to grow until sometime after the show's cancellation. Again, that's how I remember it and I would be the first one to be interested in how other folks recall it.
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Old April 11 2013, 11:22 PM   #83
Harvey
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

Nimoy wasn't involved in the incident. Whitney told him about it after the fact, and they were in the room together when the "executive" came by with a polished stone to apologize. That's why he knows the man's identity.

Didn't mean to imply otherwise.
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Old April 12 2013, 12:12 AM   #84
not
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

From the The 14th Annual NAACP Image Awards:



Though the Meyer Dolinsky's episode was broadcast November 22, 1968, I can only surmise his intent was to write with the spirit of this award in mind.
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Old April 12 2013, 12:48 AM   #85
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

Why would you or anyone surmise that? The meaning you seem to attache to your supplied quote is an ill-considered stretch as I doubt the spirit of any NAACP award is to reinforce the imagery of an african-american woman "to kiss/be kissed" by anyone against her will.

The only thing we can "surmise' is that Dolinsky accepted a commission to write a script for "Star Trek" that would please the producers and make himself some money - and there is certainly nothing wrong with that. He was a fine writer who specialised in the science fiction genre.

The clear purpose of any NAACP award or positive mention would be in recognition and positive affirmation of Nichelle's continued presence on the series overall.
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Old April 12 2013, 03:13 AM   #86
not
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

[QUOTE=Danger Ace;7931974]
Why would you or anyone surmise that? The meaning you seem to attache to your supplied quote is an ill-considered stretch as I doubt the spirit of any NAACP award is to reinforce the imagery of an african-american woman "to kiss/be kissed" by anyone against her will.
You are forgetting that Kirk was forced to kiss too. Yes, James Tiberius proved his sexuality but think of the telekinetic assault from the perspective of a gay man –both equally unwilling
The only thing we can "surmise' is that Dolinsky accepted a commission to write a script for "Star Trek" that would please the producers and make himself some money - and there is certainly nothing wrong with that. He was a fine writer who specialised in the science fiction genre.
I don’t really don’t know his work –I am not that type of fan but I found this article interesting that refers to his “misogynistic, another recurring undercurrent in Dolinsky's work” but is that fair?
The clear purpose of any NAACP award or positive mention would be in recognition and positive affirmation of Nichelle's continued presence on the series overall
.
Hmm, I believe the award was to acknowledge that black men and women were breaking out of stereotypical performances and to further encourage the dismantling of limiting characters based on societal rules. Uhura kissing a white man would have met that definition
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Old April 12 2013, 04:18 AM   #87
Shaka Zulu
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
not wrote: View Post
Networks were subject to Broadcast Standards and Practices and I've come to realize the "rape" aspect was just the writer's attempt to appease and avoid censorship of an interracial relationship. After all, these popular characters were not going against 60's societal norms, they were being forced against their own wills


Ergo, the "rape" responsibility was never theirs but their mind controllers
I stated that in my post. I said Kirk was just as much a victim as Uhura thereby placing the full responsibility on the Platonions.

And in skirting Standards & Practices those in-charge undermined their own efforts. "Free will" is everything in something like this and without it you cannot claim any social victory. Did african-americans sit at home and view that scene as a sign of social progress? Did african-american women? Did women in general? Whose cause was forwarded by that? It sure wasn't any civil-rights victory.

The meaning attached to the Kirk-Uhura kiss was always and will always be a sad grab for PR and contrived relevance. Which is shame because of all the other real contributions it gave us.

I mean: Uhura's presence was a positive for millions, no-doubt about that. As was George Takei's appearances. TOS championed a lot of progressive ideas, but let us be honest about it so as not to diminish them is my point.
IMHO, the best kiss was not that event, but the kiss in the 2009 movie between Uhura and Spock. Other better moments are the kiss between Odo & Kira, the emotional moment when Trip acknowledges that his beloved sister is dead on Enterprise, and a whole host of others I can't remember now. All of what I've mentioned are way, way better than some forced S&M game concocted by Meyer Dolinsky.

Last edited by Shaka Zulu; April 12 2013 at 11:24 AM.
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Old April 12 2013, 08:29 AM   #88
Danger Ace
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

not wrote: View Post
Hmm, I believe the award was to acknowledge that black men and women were breaking out of stereotypical performances...
I agree with the above. Now explain again how an african-american woman being forced to kiss a white man is breaking out of a stereotype? <-- brilliant use of an emoticon.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:02 PM   #89
Marsden
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

Harvey wrote: View Post
Nimoy wasn't involved in the incident. Whitney told him about it after the fact, and they were in the room together when the "executive" came by with a polished stone to apologize. That's why he knows the man's identity.

Didn't mean to imply otherwise.
I'm sorry, Harvey, you didn't imply that, but I came to the wrong conclusion. I've read the sample text available to the book on amazon and it explained very well that Mr. Nimoy is a caring man and she confided in him. Sorry I thought something else might have been the case.



Maybe this is too off the subject of the OP but I think a better demenstration of racial equality and breaking of stereotypes in Star Trek is in Court Martial when Commodore Stone was bossing Capt. Kirk around as his clear superior. But maybe that isn't dramatic enough.
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Old April 12 2013, 01:25 PM   #90
Shaka Zulu
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Re: "Plato's Stepchildren:" Kirk-Uhura Rape Scene?

Marsden wrote: View Post
Maybe this is too off the subject of the OP but I think a better demonstration of racial equality and breaking of stereotypes in Star Trek is in Court Martial when Commodore Stone was bossing Capt. Kirk around as his clear superior. But maybe that isn't dramatic enough.
That's one of the best ones ever, and really shows what racial equality in an idealized future could be like.
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