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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old April 2 2013, 08:55 PM   #46
BillJ
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
She was emotionally compromised and wasn't thinking logically but this doesn't translate as psychopathic. I find very few political decisions to be sensible or humane, it doesn't mean I believe David Cameron is a psychopath.
Having your crew down below gang raping an enemy infiltrator equals psychopath.
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Old April 2 2013, 08:58 PM   #47
hyzmarca
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
You question a lot of her tactics, but Adama himself said "From a tactical perspective, it is hard to find fault with anything Cain did" at the end of Razor. Maybe her decision to attack was the correct tactical decision in the context of that universe. Lots of people on Pegasus say they owe their lives to her, she probably made some good decisions off screen. Kara says the fleet is less safe without her and Adama thinks highly of her tactics.
The decision to attack wasn't a tactical decision at all.
The decision to attack was a strategic decision, and it was a shitty one.

All of her tactical decisions were sound. But tactics don't win wars. Strategy and logistics do. Strategically, her decisions were utter crap.
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Old April 2 2013, 08:58 PM   #48
DalekJim
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Raiding civilians for the greater good of... what?
The human race. I'm not saying it was the best choice but everything Cain did was out of fear and for the ship. She wasn't some greedy Cheney figure that stood to gain money and power from the conflict.

It's why I don't think BSG's social critique of the War on Terror really worked. Iraq had no nuclear weapons and were no threat to America. The Cyclons had just wiped out most of the human race in a nuclear holocaust. It made that type of behaviour far more reasonable.
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Old April 2 2013, 09:00 PM   #49
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Adama would be dead too if it wasn't for constant divine intervention in the guise of citizens in his fleet constantly experiencing visions, having God-messengers in their heads which gave them the word of the almighty, and Starbuck being resurrected as an angel with the knowledge of what to do in order to get to Earth.

Cain had none of this and had to make the tough choices. If God hadn't for some entirely unexplained reason decided to bombard the Galactica with riddles, visions and resurrections then they'd be as dead as Cain. All of them.
Funny, I seem to recall both Galactica and Pegasus winding up in the same place months after the attack on the Colonies, hence the whole drama of her being in charge and combining the fleet. Was God slacking off? God didn't seem to give Galactica much of a head start or advantage.

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Silvercrest wrote: View Post
That's true, but a lot of Cain's atrocities would have occurred even if she was bombarded with riddles and visions. Raiding civilians, murdering her XO... those things occurred very early on.
And they were done in sight of the greater good. To misquote a very great man, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the human race.
Were we watching the same show? She wasn't concerned about the safety of the human race, she was concerned about going out in a vengeful blaze of glory. If she was concerned about human survival, she wouldn't have murdered civilians, stolen the parts and personnel they needed to survive, divided families, and abandoned a fleet of civilian ships to be slaughtered. She wouldn't have gotten a third of her crew killed in an obvious trap. She wouldn't execute people simply for refusing to follow a stupid and reckless order of the type which she said she would not give the night before.

Cain made some wrong choices but she was under an insane amount of pressure and for all she knew was protecting the only existing humans. She couldn't afford to be soft.
Oh, she was under pressure? Well, shit, Adama and Roslin weren't under any pressure whatsoever with a fleet of 70+ ships to protect, so that excuses everything, I guess.

She knew she wasn't protecting the only existing humans. You know how I know that she knew that? Because she abandoned a bunch of humans to die.
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Old April 2 2013, 09:02 PM   #50
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Raiding civilians wasn't strategically sound. One ship alone just doesn't have the logistical capability to fight a war. She needed facilities and she needed a population to man those facilities. Spare parts would eventually run out without factories to build new ones.
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Old April 2 2013, 09:13 PM   #51
DalekJim
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Not responding to Locutus of Bored until he gets over his power trip and stops being rude and aggressive for no reason. We are comparing fictional characters, there is no reason to speak to me like that at all. Very disrespectful. Though at least he hasn't randomly harassed my friends this time.


hyzmarca wrote: View Post
Raiding civilians wasn't strategically sound. One ship alone just doesn't have the logistical capability to fight a war. She needed facilities and she needed a population to man those facilities. Spare parts would eventually run out without factories to build new ones.
That's a solid point but again, she wasn't thinking rationally. I don't agree with any her tactics I'm just defending her against calls of her being a psychopath.
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Old April 2 2013, 09:15 PM   #52
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
That line is from Razor, which fans generally agree screwed the character beyond recognition anyway. I am judging the character by her Season 2 appearance.
Most fans do not "generally agree" to any such thing, and in any event you don't get to pick and choose which parts of nuBSG you get to ignore in order to hold your argument together.
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Old April 2 2013, 09:16 PM   #53
hyzmarca
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Personally, if I were an officer on her bridge I would have fragged her at the first oppertunity.
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Old April 2 2013, 09:18 PM   #54
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Not responding to Locutus of Bored until he gets over his power trip and stops being rude and aggressive for no reason.

We are comparing fictional characters, there is no reason to speak to me like that at all. Very disrespectful.
I'm just a poster in this forum like you are. I have no "power" to trip on.

And you're not responding because you have no valid response. You've run out of flimsy excuses for rape and genocide to support the character you like.
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Old April 2 2013, 09:18 PM   #55
DalekJim
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
That line is from Razor, which fans generally agree screwed the character beyond recognition anyway. I am judging the character by her Season 2 appearance.
Most fans do not "generally agree" to any such thing, and in any event you don't get to pick and choose which parts of nuBSG you get to ignore in order to hold your argument together.
Well, alright even if we have to count Razor it gives us the Adama defending Cain quote mentioned in the OP so I still win .
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Old April 2 2013, 09:22 PM   #56
lurok
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Cain was clearly nuts (that first shot of her says it all). Or 'emotionally compromised' if you prefer. Take your pick. But indefensible.

Roslin's vote-rigging is a far more interesting discussion.
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Old April 2 2013, 09:39 PM   #57
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
You've run out of flimsy excuses for rape and genocide to support the character you like.
It's not even that. I guess he just enjoys stirring the pot.
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Old April 2 2013, 10:22 PM   #58
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
5. According to Adama at the end of Razor, "From a tactical perspective, its hard to find fault with anything she did." That's the highest compliment you can pay any commander. Starbuck also acknowledges the fleet is less safe without her.
Another reading of these compliments is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Adama would be dead too if it wasn't for constant divine intervention in the guise of citizens in his fleet constantly experiencing visions, having God-messengers in their heads which gave them the word of the almighty, and Starbuck being resurrected as an angel with the knowledge of what to do in order to get to Earth.

Cain had none of this and had to make the tough choices. If God hadn't for some entirely unexplained reason decided to bombard the Galactica with riddles, visions and resurrections then they'd be as dead as Cain. All of them.
Funny, I seem to recall both Galactica and Pegasus winding up in the same place months after the attack on the Colonies, hence the whole drama of her being in charge and combining the fleet. Was God slacking off? God didn't seem to give Galactica much of a head start or advantage.

DalekJim wrote: View Post

And they were done in sight of the greater good. To misquote a very great man, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the human race.
Were we watching the same show? She wasn't concerned about the safety of the human race, she was concerned about going out in a vengeful blaze of glory. If she was concerned about human survival, she wouldn't have murdered civilians, stolen the parts and personnel they needed to survive, divided families, and abandoned a fleet of civilian ships to be slaughtered. She wouldn't have gotten a third of her crew killed in an obvious trap. She wouldn't execute people simply for refusing to follow a stupid and reckless order of the type which she said she would not give the night before.

Cain made some wrong choices but she was under an insane amount of pressure and for all she knew was protecting the only existing humans. She couldn't afford to be soft.
Oh, she was under pressure? Well, shit, Adama and Roslin weren't under any pressure whatsoever with a fleet of 70+ ships to protect, so that excuses everything, I guess.

She knew she wasn't protecting the only existing humans. You know how I know that she knew that? Because she abandoned a bunch of humans to die.
Very good points.
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Old April 2 2013, 11:28 PM   #59
PsychoPere
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

lurok wrote: View Post
Roslin's vote-rigging is a far more interesting discussion.
Back during the wait for season four, I posted a thread that was highly critical of Roslin's presidency, and her election fraud was a component of my argument. The thread appears to have been long since purged, or I'd link you to it so that you could read a discussion along the lines you raise.
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Old April 3 2013, 12:41 AM   #60
randomfan86
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

With regard to the torture of the prisoner. The prisoner had aided and abetted in a genocide. Let us not forget this. Above all Cain wanted information. One of the ways she wanted to accomplish this was by psychological torture and degradation. Torture has been used by both "good guys" and "bad guys" throughout history. Watch Zero Dark Thirty.

With regard to raiding the civilian ships...in a lot of wars throughout history including WWI and the Civil War (the good guys...the Union did this), there was a common tactic utilized called scorched Earth where an army would destroy anything - food, homes, etc. that could be considered useful to the enemy. Lots of civilians died as a result of these tactics. At least Cain was just scavenging for things she needed. Judge her not to harshly.

I think the end of the Pegasus arc and Razor pretty much vindicates her. At her funeral Starbuck says the fleet is less safe without her and everyone on Pegasus pretty much agrees with this. Towards the end of Razor Adama acknowledges that he can't find anything wrong tactically with anything Cain did and refuses to render a moral judgement on her. And I think what symbolically vindicates her is that her protege Kendra Shaw is promoted to XO in Razor and sacrifices herself in battle at the end. Adama recommends posthumous commendation for Shaw despite the self-righteous objections of Lee. Adama also tells a shaken Lee that his decision to sacrifice Starbuck, Shaw and the away-team (overruled by Adama) wouldn't have been the wrong decision implying Cain would have made that decision in a heartbeat.

Last edited by randomfan86; April 3 2013 at 01:25 AM.
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