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Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old April 4 2013, 12:50 PM   #166
Wintertainment
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
At the end of Razor Adama, after studying the totality of Cain's tactics declares he cannot find fault with any of the tacitics Cain used. Starbuck declares the fleet is less safe without her. Pretty much everyone on the Pegasus agree with this statement. This last point takes care of all the various gaps that the on-screen time doesn't provide us.
please stop saying this over and over again. it isn't proof. why didn't you try the 'cain wanted to protect humans' line again too?

one mission is not a guerilla war
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Old April 4 2013, 12:58 PM   #167
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

junxon wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post
At the end of Razor Adama, after studying the totality of Cain's tactics declares he cannot find fault with any of the tacitics Cain used. Starbuck declares the fleet is less safe without her. Pretty much everyone on the Pegasus agree with this statement. This last point takes care of all the various gaps that the on-screen time doesn't provide us.
please stop saying this over and over again. it isn't proof. why didn't you try the 'cain wanted to protect humans' line again too?

one mission is not a guerilla war
LOL...that mission took setup...that's how they ran into Galactica. And that mission is but a slice of what we were shown of her adventures. Battestar had twenty something episodes before we saw Cain. What we didn't see we can only rely on what Adama and the Pegasus' own crew say.
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Old April 4 2013, 01:10 PM   #168
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

and they said 'she stripped civilian ships and left them to die'. great heroic adventures there.

stop making shit up
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Old April 4 2013, 01:44 PM   #169
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
. But what the show thinks is irrelevant to what we decide is right in the real world, and anyone has the right to apply the same reasoning to their opinion of a fictional character.
The opinion of the SK people is all the matters to my argument and what they think of him. They think highly of him, that is a fact not an opinion. They democratically elected his daughter their first woman President (very paternalistic society). Whether the economic boon was directly due to him or not, it was under his watch and they give him credit, and are willing to overlook his torture/oppression/murder. That is the most relevant point to my argument.

I am not following your going to war/reunification of Korea line of reasoning.
I left part of the citation from my post because the point made there is still true. Even if Starbuck is an angel or some other divine agent, people will still draw their own conclusions, no matter what the characters shout out on behalf of the writers.

The south Korean people have since discovered that capitalism is not the cornucopia promised, and the supposed Communist propaganda about the inevitability of capitalist crisis was simply education. This woman was first elected by the ruling class, then sold to the populace. The chances that her real platform, the one she really wants to carry out, is the one she ran on are pretty miniscule. The assumption that the new Park's election is an unreserved endorsement of the old Park is not as easily justified as you seem to think. I hope you're wrong, because I would hate to despise the people of south Korea.

The assumption that FDR is widely endorsed as a leader despite his many atrocities suffers from two problems. First, his domestic program, the New Deal, has been under attack from the beginning and it's destruction is well underway. Second, FDR's criminal acts during WWII (most notably mass internment of Nisei) have actually been widely condemned, not endorsed. FDR is widely hated, especially for things that are not criminal, such as making an alliance with the USSR against the Nazis.

It is hard to openly apologize for slavery, but as a matter of fact, insofar as it is possible to propagate Lincoln hate without giving the game away, it is done. It was not an accident that Argo won Best Picture over Lincoln. It is obligatory to announce that Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, etc., always in the most invidious way possible.

Whatever the merits your analysis of the show's intentions, your real life comparisions show shameless bias.

PS The US militarists seem to like repeat the mantra about how no army has conquered Afghanistan in history. I suppose it sounds like a good excuse. But, as a matter of historical fact, Alexander the Great did conquer Afghanistan. It was called Bactria then, and Greek kings ruled for quite a long time. Also, the Mongols succeeded, so well that their descendants, called the Hazaras, are still a major ethnic group in Afghanistan. I'm sure the US Army Generals like to imagine they are the equivalent of Alexander the Great. But in practice they are more like the Mongols, which is why they can't build a reliable puppet state. Mongols were barbarians, not builders of civilized societies. (Terminological note: "barbarian" in this context has mostly to do with being a nomadic society, and "civilized societies" in this case is rather literally about societies that live in cities.)
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Last edited by stj; April 4 2013 at 04:39 PM.
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Old April 4 2013, 03:53 PM   #170
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Stoo wrote: View Post
Next week on scifi villain apologism: "carter burke: not that bad really".
Burke was just doing his job.
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Old April 4 2013, 04:53 PM   #171
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Stoo wrote: View Post
Next week on scifi villain apologism: "carter burke: not that bad really".
[RandomFan] He was a great guy, and a brilliant tactician for a businessman.

Linkin Park did far worse than anything he did, which was fairly mild. They recorded tracks for the Transformers films, so clearly anything Burke did pales in comparison to that monstrous act. Oops, wrong Lincoln and Park.

It doesn't matter that no one here is defending the more questionable of Lincoln's, Park's, or FDR's actions from either a timely or a modern context (which BSG society is roughly supposed to be analogous to but with some major technological perks), I'll just keep mentioning them over and over again anyway like that's an actual argument.

Plus, asI've already demonstrated, as long as you improve the economy, all crimes are forgiven. And since 90% of the Aliens-universe economy seems to be centered around Weyland-Yutani, making a few human sacrifices in the name of the bioweapons division is a small price to pay for economic prosperity.

Gorman showed up with Burke at Ripley's apartment, so clearly he was a good guy, because Gorman never made any mistakes himself, right? His impression of Burke must be unquestionable.

Plus, Burke shoved Gorman aside and said "you had your chance" when he was trying to prevent Ripley from rescuing the ambushed Colonial Marines, so obviously Burke's whole mission was just to save the Marines. Never mind that he was only saving them long enough to get him and his potential alien incubators Ripley and Newt off the planet safely, after which he was going to sabotage their cryopods in midflight. I'll just keep mentioning his selfless defense of the Marines as if that was his actual mission all along and ignore everything that doesn't fit my narrative.

Also, like Admiral Cain, Burke was a tactical genius when he sealed himself off from the only people with weapons in a building full of xenomorphs, even though they explicitly stated that they would bring him back to Earth to expose his crimes, and Earth was where The Company seems to control practically everything, so I'm sure they could have gotten him off. But hey, tactical genius.

Oh, yeah, also STRAWMAN! STRAWMAN! STRAWMAN! GODWIN! GODWIN! GODWIN! It doesn't matter if it's not a strawman if it's actually quotable arguments I've made, or that there's nothing wrong with mentioning Hitler or the Nazis if the situation is actually comparable to Hitler or the Nazis, I'm not going to address those types of lazy arguments. I'll just repeat the same discredited points 500 times, because that's not lazy. [/RandomFan]


There, that should handle his next forty posts or so. Just make the same type of arguments about Cain and you're all set.
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Old April 4 2013, 04:59 PM   #172
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
You can declare victory all you want; clearly none has been acheived [sic].
Not so; you've very clearly got the losing end of the argument in your exchanges with Locutus if no one else. Among other things he's showing a great deal more familiarity with and reliance upon what actually occurred in the drama and how the character behaved, while you continue to resort to generalizations drawn from superficial comparisons to real-world events to draw conclusions about how the character "ought" to be viewed. Evidence trumps all else in this kind of argument, and the most relevant evidence is what was in the story.
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Old April 4 2013, 06:37 PM   #173
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The Stig wrote: View Post
It's also worth pointing out that Starbuck is hardly a good judge of character, so relying on her word that the fleet was 'less safe' with Cain gone doesn't hold much water.
I could be wrong, but didn't Starbuck also have a personal stake in trusting Cain, namely that Cain was planning to take the fleet back to Caprica to rescue Anders and the resistance fighters?

It's not like Starbuck was looking at Cain objectively.
Exactly. Adama had just denied Starbuck's request to return to Caprica and Starbuck was desperate to find a way back. Cain was her only option (or so Starbuck thought at the time.) Additionally, Starbuck very clearly admired Cain's clarity of purpose, even if that purpose was totally heinous, because Starbuck herself was so often conflicted and unable to focus her actions.
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Old April 4 2013, 07:04 PM   #174
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
[RandomFan] He was a great guy, and a brilliant tactician for a businessman.
well played sir. *salute*
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Old April 4 2013, 07:34 PM   #175
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote:
Cain is even-handed, she was willing to kill her best friend and XO for insubordination so she wasn't treating them any differently. She is heavy-handed with everyone with regard to discipline.
I'll give her that. She kills the innocent and the guilty alike.

Remember, aside from leaving civilians to die, she also deliberately murdered families just to get people to serve her.

I never said it made it "okay". I do not condone or condemn anything she has done. I have purposely tried to avoid any moral judgements in this thread. I am merely putting Cain in the context of war. Everyone in war has used torture, Cain limited it to one person, while the US tortured over 50 individuals.
I never said anything about some action being "right" or "wrong" just because someone else did it. These are damn straw-men. I am once again just bringing up those examples to put Cain in the context of war. And yes, what she did was pretty mild in comparison to scorched earth, internment, and Park's torture/oppression in Korea. I also bring up the US Constitution to show that during war, the constitution gives the executive a lot of power.
Every time you compare her to someone or some action you think is worse, you're trying to cast her in a favorable light. You may not be saying she was "right", but you're trying to justify actions that many of us feel are unjustifiable.

It doesn't matter what others have done. None of that will turn us into Cain fans.

FDR, Park, and Lincoln are all considered good leaders by their people who are clearly willing to overlook their so called morally dubious actions.
Not a troll. She really is my favorite character on the show and I feel she gets too much crap from fans especially when put it in the context of real leaders (Lincoln, FDR, Park) who have done things much worse in war yet are lionized today.
I have a similar response to those arguments each time.
That's true. I'd work on that.

how is what relavent? My point is that the torture/oppression/murder can be overlooked if you have a good leader.
Right. And our point is that it can't.

I call her tactically flawless because Adama admitted as much. In the context of the universe that might've been the right move to go forward. The viewer can only rely on Adama's analysis of it.
That's only true if you assume Adama is never wrong. The viewer can also make up his own mind, which we have.

she is my favorite and has been getting a lot of crap from fans. People have a myopic view of her.
Some people certainly do.

Hope I also get some support from the many Cain fans that I know are out there.
Come back when you find some.
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Old April 4 2013, 07:38 PM   #176
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
randomfan86 wrote: View Post

False. Look no further than our current situation in Afghanistan. The only support the Taliban is getting is pretty limited support from Pakistan's ISI (their intelligence service...should note in fairness to Pakistan, they will call these false allegations and outrageous). They've fought the US to a stalemate over the course of 12 years. In the long game...the US will withdraw in 2014, experts say chances are good of a Taliban takeover.
It's because we've wasted over a trillion dollars in that war, killed or maimed too many of our soldiers and over a decade for a hellhole that no army in history has been able to control and never will.

We probably wouldn't have this problem if we were immortal robots, used nukes like bullets and thought we will doing the will of God to wipe them out instead of installing democracy.

The situations are as far apart as shit can get.
Your conclusion is based on the premise that the other side wouldn't also have advanced weapons which is false. Also, they are not immortal and can die if they wish to continue a fruitless fight from long distance.
Based on actually watching the show and not the fantasy inside my own head, both Colonial and Cylon forces seemed fairly evenly matched in terms of one to one firepower. Cylons were superior in terms of sheer numbers. There are two Battlestars remaining, both surviving by pure luck and possibly a Cylon trying to fight her own programming in Galactica's case. Boomer was supposed to destroy Galactica, but she stopped herself. The Cylon's plan was to kill every single human in the universe. Letting a single Battlestar go because they blew up a few Basestars isn't going to make them stop. The skinjobs and the Raiders resurrect if they get killed, making them immortal and also able to learn from their mistakes. Based on what was actually shown on the show, they were willing to deal with humans who resorted to suicide bombings. These bombings did not truly harm the Cylons, they created confusion that helped when the Galactica showed up. At that point the Cylons were just going to nuke the planet and kill anyone left. The only time they actually did damage to the Cylons was when they destroyed the Resurrection Ship. That's with two Battlestars and their Vipers. A single Battlestar randomly attacking Basestars is just running, based on what was actually shown if there are two or three Basestars, a Battlestar is nearly destroyed in minutes. Cain would have never been able to get near the Colonies due to it being crawling with Basestars at the time. They were only able to even go back using captured Cylon ships. The Pegasus would have jumped in, maybe take out a few Basestars before finally getting blown apart. Maybe in a way similar to how she actually went out, but in a less heroic and more suicidal way.
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Old April 4 2013, 07:52 PM   #177
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

Personally I'm glad the fictional character who never existed is dead, especially the way she died.

Team Cylon
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Old April 4 2013, 08:05 PM   #178
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

who'd of thought she didn't have a tactic to deal with an intruder in her quarters, the unbeatable genius tactician that she was?

or at least have a guard posted to her door. unless he was off raping prisoners right then.
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Old April 4 2013, 08:09 PM   #179
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

All things being equal, I'd say that Cavil is the one who needs defending the most. He was right. Building meat robots that can't transmigrate into metal bodies at will is kind of absurd. From a design standpoint, the Final Five were completely wrong. It would have been much more efficient to produce a resurrection system that could drop a personality into any body it wants, including artificial ones. Also, the Colonies probably deserved to be nuked, because they were all giant assholes.
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Old April 4 2013, 08:09 PM   #180
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Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

randomfan86 wrote: View Post
FDR, Park, and Lincoln are all considered good leaders by their people who are clearly willing to overlook their so called morally dubious actions.
Cain executed children. Since when is that morally dubious? How is that even remotely defensible?
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