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Old April 5 2013, 11:13 PM   #46
BillJ
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Re: Star Fleet and Genocide

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post

Starfleet will do extreme, almost immoral things when its survival is threatened. In The Pale Moonlight is a perfect example.
Starfleet didn't sanction killing the senator, just forging the record. That other bit was all Garak; I doubt Sisko told Starfleet about that part, considering the end of the episode.
With or without a log of admittance from Sisko, I'm sure Starfleet had no trouble piecing together what happened to Vreenak.
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Old April 6 2013, 02:23 AM   #47
R. Star
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Re: Star Fleet and Genocide

BillJ wrote: View Post
TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post

Starfleet will do extreme, almost immoral things when its survival is threatened. In The Pale Moonlight is a perfect example.
Starfleet didn't sanction killing the senator, just forging the record. That other bit was all Garak; I doubt Sisko told Starfleet about that part, considering the end of the episode.
With or without a log of admittance from Sisko, I'm sure Starfleet had no trouble piecing together what happened to Vreenak.
Yeah, and Garak's sly enough to have a full confession on a datapad hidden somewhere to be mailed to the Romulan embassy on the event of his disappearance too. Starfleet can't touch him without airing their involvement in it, though Sisko can legitly claim he didn't know Vreenak was going to be murdered.
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Old April 6 2013, 07:42 AM   #48
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Re: Star Fleet and Genocide

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
Starfleet didn't sanction killing the senator, just forging the record.
Starfleet placed Sisko in a position of authority, in order that he would made decisions. Starfleet is responsible for Sisko's official decisions.

It was Sisko who brought Garek into his plan. Garek, a being with basically non-existent ethics. Sisko, in this particular event, is responsible for Garek's actions. Garek's focused goal was the end result of Sisko's plan, the forged data rod wasn't going to fool the Romulans, Garek knew this.

The murder of the senator, anyone else aboard his ship, and also the murder of the original forger by Garek can all be laid at the feet of Starfleet. You might, in addition, be able to include any misdeeds carried out by the Romulans during the course of the war as a result of Sisko's plan.

( ... but Sisko only knocked over the first domino ... )

I simply love using "In the Pale Moonlight" when some Trek fans whine about section 31.

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Old April 6 2013, 01:20 PM   #49
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Re: Star Fleet and Genocide

So, you hold Starfleet accountable for every rogue officer? Does this make Starfleet responsible for all the Yangs and Kohms Capt. Tracy killed?
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Old April 6 2013, 01:32 PM   #50
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Re: Star Fleet and Genocide

Shawnster wrote: View Post
So, you hold Starfleet accountable for every rogue officer? Does this make Starfleet responsible for all the Yangs and Kohms Capt. Tracy killed?
Well, no. He was punished for his crimes, therefore Starfleet is off the hook.
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Old April 6 2013, 01:39 PM   #51
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Re: Star Fleet and Genocide

The Wormhole wrote: View Post

Well, no. He was punished for his crimes, therefore Starfleet is off the hook.
How is Starfleet off the hook? Tracy butchered thousands, I'm sure him being court-martialed made the Yangs feel all warm and fuzzy and forgiving inside.
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Old April 6 2013, 02:02 PM   #52
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Re: Star Fleet and Genocide

BillJ wrote: View Post
I'm sure him being court-martialed made the Yangs feel all warm and fuzzy and forgiving inside.
And so am I. Therefore, it's canon.
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Old April 6 2013, 04:57 PM   #53
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Re: Star Fleet and Genocide

Shawnster wrote: View Post
So, you hold Starfleet accountable for every rogue officer?
Was Sisko in this case a "rogue officer?"

Or was he acting within the authority granted him by Starfleet. When you place someone in a position of power, even if you aren't monitoring them second by second, you bear a on-going responsibility for their official decisions and actions.

Sisko was acting as a Starfleet officer all during "In the Pale Moonlight," not as a private citizen. Sisko was counseled by his subordinates on his plan, but none of them attempted to shut the plan down. This wasn't a spur of the moment thing, where the officers under Sisko's commander might have been caught up in the action. They had time to consider, and go over Sisko head to higher command.

Starfleet does bear responsibility for Sisko actions, and the extended results of his plan.

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Old April 6 2013, 05:47 PM   #54
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Re: Star Fleet and Genocide

Shawnster wrote: View Post
So, you hold Starfleet accountable for every rogue officer? Does this make Starfleet responsible for all the Yangs and Kohms Capt. Tracy killed?

there's a big difference between "going rogue" and being given a wide latitude to complete a key mission. Clearly Sisko was given a wide latitude to do what was necessary in that case, he was NOT "going rogue" even if Starfleet didn't have 100% knowledge of the specifics of what he was doing.
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Old April 7 2013, 12:07 AM   #55
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Re: Star Fleet and Genocide

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post

Starfleet didn't sanction killing the senator, just forging the record. That other bit was all Garak; I doubt Sisko told Starfleet about that part, considering the end of the episode.
True, and Sisko not telling Starfleet is a possibility, but their hands are pretty dirty under the "Clean Hands" doctrine.

When the Romaulans eventually went to war and lost millions (as the series seems to claim) that achieved the same effect as genocide.

Mainly because it was engineered by Starfleet to happen.


If they forged any records dealing with this it amounts to a cover up.

Shawnster wrote: View Post
So, you hold Starfleet accountable for every rogue officer?
Star Trek TUC is a doozy.

An example of Starfleet conspiring against political figures, their own officers, considering a pre-attack against a power calling for peace discussions, willing to look away while that power faces planet-wide catastrophe.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; April 7 2013 at 07:16 AM.
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Old April 7 2013, 02:14 AM   #56
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Re: Star Fleet and Genocide

Culpable dependability
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