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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 26 2013, 10:54 AM   #91
mickmike
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

It's not as black and white as the maquis being criminals and the federation being the law

I think it's easy to say to work within the system and be the system when it's not your home being taken away from you. The Maquis felt that the system had let them down, they didn't like the options being presented to them which i think came down to move or be subjected to cardassian rule.

By handing over the colonies to the cardassians and then expecting thousands of people to move, the Federation showed how arrogant it was and a complete disregard for it's own citizens.

Considering what the Cardassians were doing to the colonists when the Federation wasn't looking, and the fact that they couldn't rely on the federation to come to their aid, the colonists had no choice and every right to defend themselves.

The Federation failed their own people for a peace treaty the Cardassians never respected unless it was in their interest to do so.

The irony is that ultimately the maquis were proven right about the cardassians when they joined the dominion and caused one of the most destructive wars the alpha quadrant had ever seen
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Old October 26 2013, 11:53 AM   #92
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

mickmike wrote: View Post
It's not as black and white as the maquis being criminals and the federation being the law

I think it's easy to say to work within the system and be the system when it's not your home being taken away from you. The Maquis felt that the system had let them down, they didn't like the options being presented to them which i think came down to move or be subjected to cardassian rule.

By handing over the colonies to the cardassians and then expecting thousands of people to move, the Federation showed how arrogant it was and a complete disregard for it's own citizens.

Considering what the Cardassians were doing to the colonists when the Federation wasn't looking, and the fact that they couldn't rely on the federation to come to their aid, the colonists had no choice and every right to defend themselves.

The Federation failed their own people for a peace treaty the Cardassians never respected unless it was in their interest to do so.

The irony is that ultimately the maquis were proven right about the cardassians when they joined the dominion and caused one of the most destructive wars the alpha quadrant had ever seen
It doesn't matter if the Marquis where right about the Cardassians, everyone knew what the Cardassian military where like, they knew they where brutal and ruthless.

They had the option to move.

They did not.

They had the option not to steal supplies from the Federation.

They did.

They had the option not to attack Cardassian colonies, defenceless colonies like they had been when the Cardassian Military attacked them.

But they did.

They had the option not to use biogenetic warheads on a civilian population .

But they did.

The Marquis where wronged, now doubt about that. But they became criminals the moment they decide to steal from the Federation, attack civilian populations and almost plunge the Federation into another war.

When the property you live in suddenly belongs to the violent, territorial group of louts. And your given the option to move. Then move, don't act surprise the louts show up to beat the crap out of you.

It's not a matter about the Marquis being right about the Cardassians being untrustworthy bullies, everyone knows this. Hell Cardassians know this. This is preventing another war, this is about breaking Federation law using Federation supplies and officers.
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Old October 26 2013, 01:53 PM   #93
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Why should they have to move from their homes? Why should they have to give in to ruthless bullies? Should The Bajorans have had to do this when the cardassians came for them?

The Maquis had to steal from the Federation because the Cardassian military despite pledging to leave the colonists alone began to do things like poison food replicators.

Cardassian colonists were not defenseless they had weapons secretly provided to them by the cardassian military. These weapons included shuttles, some of which had been armed with galor class disruptors. These shuttles were used to attack federation colonies.

How did the Federation respond? By doing nothing and treating a hostile, untrustworthy alien race better than it's own citizens

Why should you respect the laws of a governing body that does nothing to protect you?

Last edited by mickmike; October 26 2013 at 01:55 PM. Reason: spelling, grammar
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Old October 26 2013, 02:11 PM   #94
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

mickmike wrote: View Post
Why should they have to move from their homes? Why should they have to give in to ruthless bullies? Should The Bajorans have had to do this when the cardassians came for them?

The Maquis had to steal from the Federation because the Cardassian military despite pledging to leave the colonists alone began to do things like poison food replicators.

Cardassian colonists were not defenseless they had weapons secretly provided to them by the cardassian military. These weapons included shuttles, some of which had been armed with galor class disruptors. These shuttles were used to attack federation colonies.

How did the Federation respond? By doing nothing and treating a hostile, untrustworthy alien race better than it's own citizens

Why should you respect the laws of a governing body that does nothing to protect you?
Which Cardassian Colonists had weapons ? Cause the Cardassian colonists fleeing a world where the Holier then thou Marquis just bio nuked seemed pretty defenceless.

And what did the Marquis expect to happen. While I have some sympathy for them I understand that they could have moved but did not. If you lie next to a rattlesnake don't be surprise it bit you and blame the guy who left your bedspread there.

As for respecting the laws, fine break their laws. But don't be surprised when they react to it. A robber does not respect the law doesn't mean he should be offended when he gets arrested.

They could have moved.

They did not.

Defending a home , in a place which was no longer theirs.

Cause and effect.
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Old October 26 2013, 02:27 PM   #95
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

check out the episodes 'The Maquis pt 1 & 2' or have a look at the memory alpha entry. The Cardassian military secretly supplying their colonies was one of the reasons the Maquis was formed.

The decision was made for them by The Federation. The colonists had no part on the decision making process. Which to me goes against the very values the Federation was founded on. The reason the colonists didn't want to move was because they had built lives, families and loved their homes. Why should people have to give up their homes and be prevented from living on a planet that they have built a life on because the government tells them to?

The Maquis are not that different to the Bajoran resistance. According to the Cardassians, Bajor no longer belonged to the Bajorans but the Bajoran people still defended it. Are the Bajorans criminals as well for their actions?
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Old October 26 2013, 02:46 PM   #96
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Why should the Maquis move? Very simple answer: It's the Federation. It's the FUTURE. There is a near-infinite amount of living space available. The Federation was perfectly willing to HELP them move. Given this, there is no logical excuse for staying.

I mean, if they were going to knock my house down (which I have lived in for 15 years) to build a highway or something, but they said to me "Look, we've got another home all ready for you to move in, a mile away," HELL YEAH I'd move! There's a difference between "defending your home" and "being a stubborn jackass."

mickmike wrote: View Post
The decision was made for them by The Federation. The colonists had no part on the decision making process.
Not true. It was the colonists' idea to stay there in the first place. Watch the TNG episode which introduced them (Journey's End).
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Old October 26 2013, 03:10 PM   #97
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Actually it is true, the Federation signed the treaty despite the protests of the colonists. That to me shows that the Federation didn't listen to the wants or needs of it's own people.

Of course the various reasons for the colonists wanting to stay aren't logical, they're emotional. Emotional reasons are just as valid as logical reasons.

It's great that you would be happy to move from your home if you were asked, but we aren't talking about you. The people we are talking about didn't want to and should'nt have had to move.

These two qoutes pretty much some up my views on the subject

"On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window at Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in paradise. But the Maquis do not live in paradise. Out there, in the Demilitarized Zone, all problems have not been solved yet. There are no saints, just people; angry, scared, determined people who are going to do whatever it takes to survive, whether it meets with the Federation approval or not." - Commander Sisko

'I know you. I was like you once. But then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands, and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves Paradise, everyone should want to be in the Federation! Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day, they can take their rightful place on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways, you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious, you assimilate people - and they don't even know it.' - Michael Eddington to Captain Sisko
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Old October 26 2013, 03:43 PM   #98
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

mickmike wrote: View Post
Actually it is true, the Federation signed the treaty despite the protests of the colonists. That to me shows that the Federation didn't listen to the wants or needs of it's own people.
On the contrary, the Federation was taking into account its ENTIRE POPULATION when considering the treaty. The needs of the many vs. the needs of the few, and all that.

And Eddington is full of shit, because worlds can and do leave the Federation and nobody went to war over it. And he's got some damn nerve comparing the Federation to the Borg, because the Federation never forces any worlds to join if they don't want to. Argument invalid.
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Old October 26 2013, 04:14 PM   #99
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

yeah you're right the Federation was probably thinking about vulcan, andor, tellar and all of their more important colonies and gave these ones up because they were dispensable border worlds. But they were not dispensible to the people who lived on them and were happy living on them. They were in danger of losing their homes for a treaty the Cardassians never respected.

You may think Eddington is full of shit but i think he has a point. The Federation is constantly wandering around telling different alien cultures how they should live. The Federation has a massive superiority complex. I think his point about the Federation being pissed at The Maquis for rejecting paradise is on the money.

Last edited by mickmike; October 26 2013 at 04:19 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old October 26 2013, 04:27 PM   #100
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
TOS, TNG made a point of saying the Fed is super prosperous. Colonization is shown mainly as a challenge not a necessity.
Actually TOS made no such claim and in fact when this came up in another thread, it was pointed out how often a stable colony was hard to have since either the planet tried to kill the colonists with dangerous animals, plants, plagues, and ect. or some weird radiation, hostile race, or pedo alien would come along and kill everyone. Not to mention pre-warp civilizations and other powers putting a limit on what planets can be colonized.

Not to mention the Project Genesis proposal tape flat out saying over population was something the Federation was worried about.

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
On the contrary, the Federation was taking into account its ENTIRE POPULATION when considering the treaty. T
Are we still subscribing to the myth that the federation should have been concerned with a war against a race that according to Jellico a Galaxy-class could take 18 of their warships AT THE SAME TIME and was about as effective against Maxwell and the Phoenix as the JDSF in a Godzilla movie.

I mean for pete's sake they got their asses kicked when they had the Phoenix's prefix code and could lower the shields.
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Old October 26 2013, 06:15 PM   #101
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

mickmike wrote: View Post
The Federation is constantly wandering around telling different alien cultures how they should live.
Uh, no, really, they're not.

The Federation has the absolute right to make its case, so to speak, for worlds which wish to join. They have the right to point out the benefits of Federation membership. But the ultimate decision is left up to that world. If they don't want to join, they don't have to. And as I said, worlds have left the Federation before, and there wasn't any war that broke out as a result.

Eddington would have had a stronger case if he'd simply reminded Sisko that the problem was personal. It was. Sisko was pissed at Eddington HIMSELF. If that had been the argument, I'd buy it. But none of this Borg crap. That's an insult to everyone who died at the hands of the Borg.
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Old October 26 2013, 06:41 PM   #102
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Tuvok wrote: View Post

They could have moved.

They did not.

Defending a home , in a place which was no longer theirs.

Cause and effect.
I'm sure the Native Americans would agree with this.
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Old October 26 2013, 09:58 PM   #103
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

mickmike wrote: View Post
Considering what the Cardassians were doing to the colonists when the Federation wasn't looking, and the fact that they couldn't rely on the federation to come to their aid, the colonists had no choice and every right to defend themselves.

The Federation failed their own people for a peace treaty the Cardassians never respected unless it was in their interest to do so.

The irony is that ultimately the maquis were proven right about the cardassians when they joined the dominion and caused one of the most destructive wars the alpha quadrant had ever seen
This is probably what makes some people think Sisko was acting out of character or seemed obsessed when he went after Eddington.

At first especially in TNG, the Maquis are shown as standing up for themselves against the dishonest, cruel Cardassians. The Cardassians were the ones shooting them down, plotting against them etc, etc.

Later Sisko and Starfleet are going after them, because they are the heroes and the Maquis are the bad guys.

In For The Uniform, the ending tone of the story doesn't question whether Sisko went too far-- at the end, the music suggests 'victory' and the heroes won. Dax And Sisko are joking about it.

Then the Maqui got a face change. Notice that on Voyager in some ways the Maqui were shown as being hostile, impatient untrustworthy and suspicious.

What happened to non violent, ordinary colonists who were standing up for themselves?

Last edited by Nightdiamond; October 26 2013 at 11:24 PM.
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Old October 26 2013, 10:00 PM   #104
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

Sisko should've been sharing a cell with Eddington after what he did to Solosos III.
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Old October 26 2013, 10:08 PM   #105
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Re: Was Sisko a Javert

^ Give one shred of evidence that anyone actually died from that, and I *might* listen. But there is none.
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