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Old March 30 2013, 02:01 PM   #121
Lance
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

teacake wrote: View Post
Number One was absolutely hot. Shame they never went this way with any other female lead.
Even Spock got upset when the Aliens Of The Week™ kidnapped her.
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Old March 30 2013, 02:44 PM   #122
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Hell, other shows like Farscape did similar things (Crichton being able to stop a massive galactic war between the Peacekeepers and Scarrans and brings both empire to their knees) and no one complains there either.
And he does this in the name of peace, declaring that only peace can save us....shortly after he and his buddies kick ass, once Aeryn gives birth in a fountain while being shot at. I'm afraid this is why I say that Farscape is yet another example of a serial wrecking itself in a desperate attempt to keep things exciting and cool.

Pavonis wrote: View Post
You are misunderstanding the complaint. The problem wasn't that the Voyager crew could make repairs, it is that they could make effortless, perfect, and consequence-free repairs. They had to make repairs, that's a given. Did the repairs have to be shipyard perfect? Couldn't they have had some obvious patches occasionally, with some damage showing over the years?
Yes, the ship should be rusty, with gaping holes. Even the sails should be in tatters!

Sorry, couldn't help it, but this is such a silly objection that it's either laugh at it, or get angry about having my intelligence insulted.

Interstellar travel may be carried out by devices called "ships" in the series, but they are not boats. They are not going to barely stay afloat. In fact, one of the most objectionable things about Voyager was the repeated use of the phrase "dead in the water," which is completely illiterate. A starship is either working and the series continues, or it is busted and everyone dies in interstellar space. The notion that there can be some random patches and the thing still works is absurd.

Everyone's taste may differ. But the notion that the interpersonal relations on a starship are dramatically interesting doesn't suit mine, nor do I understand a taste that says it does. The Odyssey doesn't spend much time on the quarrels within the crew. If Voyager was supposed to be a survivalist epic, why have replicators and transporters and warp drive, none of which imply physical hardships. If Voyager was supposed to be a workplace drama, why have a starship at all? If Voyager was supposed to be some sort of serious drama about military command, it should have been set in a fictional universe with a realistic approximation of a military.

PS My idea of the deus ex machina came from reading some Greek drama. There the deus ex machina referred to a God appearing and pronouncing judgment, as when Athena renames the Furies the Friendly Ones. The notion that it is a phrase for an out of the blue save for a happy ending seems to be some sort of slang use.

In any event, the notion that Sisko somehow earns the intervention of the Prophets is the real issue. How had the Cardassians earned the right to enslave Bajor? How had the Founders earned the right to ferry armies through the Prophet's living room? The notion of "earned" rights does indeed come out of the blue as far as I'm concerned.
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Old March 30 2013, 04:26 PM   #123
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

USS Firefly wrote: View Post
Because there was nothing wrong on the show's end, so it's down to the fans.
Well that's easy, it's all the fault of the fans
The audience reaction had been far more severe and critical than any other Trek show, and far less forgiving of the same things that happen in other Trek shows too. The fans just had it out for VOY far more than anything else, so yeah it is partially the fans negative reaction.
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Old March 30 2013, 05:07 PM   #124
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

What do you expect?

Why should we like Voyager more when DS9 was better?
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Old March 30 2013, 05:36 PM   #125
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Voyager is fluffier? Although DS9 had some fairly teeth-rotting episodes too.
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Old March 30 2013, 05:46 PM   #126
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

stj wrote: View Post
Sorry, couldn't help it, but this is such a silly objection that it's either laugh at it, or get angry about having my intelligence insulted.

Interstellar travel may be carried out by devices called "ships" in the series, but they are not boats. They are not going to barely stay afloat. In fact, one of the most objectionable things about Voyager was the repeated use of the phrase "dead in the water," which is completely illiterate. A starship is either working and the series continues, or it is busted and everyone dies in interstellar space. The notion that there can be some random patches and the thing still works is absurd.
Why is the notion "absurd"? There were several episodes where Voyager's hull was breached, which would need to be sealed somehow. Why should I expect all the hull breaches to be sealed so perfectly that there would be no evidence of their existence?

Everyone's taste may differ. But the notion that the interpersonal relations on a starship are dramatically interesting doesn't suit mine, nor do I understand a taste that says it does. The Odyssey doesn't spend much time on the quarrels within the crew. If Voyager was supposed to be a survivalist epic, why have replicators and transporters and warp drive, none of which imply physical hardships. If Voyager was supposed to be a workplace drama, why have a starship at all? If Voyager was supposed to be some sort of serious drama about military command, it should have been set in a fictional universe with a realistic approximation of a military.
Star Trek: Voyager and The Odyssey are hardly comparable. And even if they have the same premise, one was definitely executed better than the other. Liking The Odyssey doesn't mean I have to like Voyager. The thread is about "what went wrong", and I offered my opinion on the matter.

PS My idea of the deus ex machina came from reading some Greek drama. There the deus ex machina referred to a God appearing and pronouncing judgment, as when Athena renames the Furies the Friendly Ones. The notion that it is a phrase for an out of the blue save for a happy ending seems to be some sort of slang use.
While I don't watch much tv, as I understand modern stories don't have Greek Gods popping in to pass judgments anymore. So, yes, "deus ex machina" has passed into slang as a description of an "out of the blue" ending. If the corruption of the meaning bothers you, by all means continue reading the ancient Greek plays that were probably modern in your youth, and ignore the inappropriate usage of it now.
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Old March 30 2013, 06:17 PM   #127
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Why is the notion "absurd"? There were several episodes where Voyager's hull was breached, which would need to be sealed somehow. Why should I expect all the hull breaches to be sealed so perfectly that there would be no evidence of their existence?
The way Starships are made in Trek, they use giant replicators to create the hulls and assemble them together while the more complex internal components are either constructed afterwards and installed, or are built first and then the hulls replicated around them.

So, for repairs they'd use the onboard replicators (we know there are bigger ones for construction) to create factory spec replacement parts for the hull, so naturally it'd look like it fits perfectly.

Problem was they didn't outright explain this and show it on-screen because it would've been too expensive to make a new "damaged" model either physically or in CGI at the time. Shows like NuBSG could do it because by then CGI tech had advanced to the point it could be used more easily.

Star Trek: Voyager and The Odyssey are hardly comparable. And even if they have the same premise, one was definitely executed better than the other. Liking The Odyssey doesn't mean I have to like Voyager. The thread is about "what went wrong", and I offered my opinion on the matter.
To be fair, Odysseus spend most of the Odyssey on Circe's Island, not being lost getting home. The getting home part is rather easily accomplished.

The whole "lost ship" thing is a starter plot that's really only good for one or two seasons. After that you need something more gripping for the series' plot.
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Old March 30 2013, 10:26 PM   #128
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

(not joking) Spitefully Poisedeon actually spent a good deal of time fucking with Odysseus's course because he built the sea walls at Troy which Odyssesus demolished. Poisedon leading whiley Odysseus in circles is somewhat comparable to Caretaker.

You know that the whole Trojan war started with the judgement of Paris? A prince of Troy, this Paris kid, got inbetween Hera, Athena and Aphrodite in a beauty/who's coolest competition, some droll about Discordia's golden apple, but the three goddesses all tried to bribe Paris for victory over their peers to fall into their laps. Hera offered power, vast kingdoms and riches, Athena offered victory in battle and supremacy over all other weaker men and the beasts, and Aphrodite offered him the most beautiful woman in all the world to get a leg over with, unfortunately who was already married. Paris chose love, so Aphrodite won and then lines where drawn down Olympus about who was going to smite Paris and who was going to stick up for the squirt, which reflected the mortal conflict that was the 10 year long siege of Troy.

Wasn't their a guy called Paris on Voyager's crew?

Oh, wasn't Circe the one changing men into furries like Neelix?
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Old March 30 2013, 10:27 PM   #129
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

lurok wrote: View Post
Voyager is fluffier? Although DS9 had some fairly teeth-rotting episodes too.
I've inevitably come to the conclusion that there really isn't much that (Or at least not as much as people like to suggest.) separates TNG, DS9, and VOY in terms of quality.

They all have their quality episodes; they all have their fair-share of stinkers. Each has great actors; each has cardboard planks. I think people generally over emphasize TNG and DS9 quality and underscore Voyager's.
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Old March 30 2013, 10:40 PM   #130
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Why is the notion "absurd"? There were several episodes where Voyager's hull was breached, which would need to be sealed somehow. Why should I expect all the hull breaches to be sealed so perfectly that there would be no evidence of their existence?
As [b]Anwar[/ib] said: Replicators. No one with a replicator would trouble to make a patch that didn't fit. If there aren't replicators, the linoleum from Neelix' kitchen or the paneling from Tom's quarters aren't going to serve as a patch. Nor are they going to run down to the scrap metal yard.

The absurdity, not just of patches from nowhere but of any juryrigging, lies in the necessity that an interstellar vessel has to keep functioning, or everyone dies. The notion that the vessel can limp along crucially depends mistaking a starship in vacuum for a steamship on the ocean.

The thread is about "what went wrong", and I offered my opinion on the matter.
Opinions aren't equal, nor do they have rights. Your opinion that foolishness about patches etc. is a particularly foolish one.

While I don't watch much tv, as I understand modern stories don't have Greek Gods popping in to pass judgments anymore. So, yes, "deus ex machina" has passed into slang as a description of an "out of the blue" ending. If the corruption of the meaning bothers you, by all means continue reading the ancient Greek plays that were probably modern in your youth, and ignore the inappropriate usage of it now.
First, watch Who Mourns for Adonais? if you can.

Second, the Prophets are Bajoran Gods, which makes their appearance a deus ex machina in dramatic terms. (Pagh-wraiths are Bajoran Evil Gods.) They must be categorized as dei ex machinae.

Third, you haven't attempted to answer the question: Why are the Prophets are suddenly willing to accept Sisko's efforts as earning a happy ending, when they never even showed much sign of understanding, much less interest? before? That came out of the blue, which even by the slang usage means deus ex machina.
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Old March 30 2013, 10:46 PM   #131
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

You do understand that Sisko has always been a prophet watching all his human adventures from the comfort of the Celestial temple where he was just fucking with earlier versions of himself to preserve continuity?
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Old March 30 2013, 11:14 PM   #132
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
USS Firefly wrote: View Post
Because there was nothing wrong on the show's end, so it's down to the fans.
Well that's easy, it's all the fault of the fans
The audience reaction had been far more severe and critical than any other Trek show, and far less forgiving of the same things that happen in other Trek shows too. The fans just had it out for VOY far more than anything else, so yeah it is partially the fans negative reaction.
But people HATE Enterprise. And the hate is fresher.
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Old March 30 2013, 11:17 PM   #133
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

But...who could possibly hate ENT? Who? OK, maybe someone who likes drowning kittens for fun. But apart from that...
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Old March 30 2013, 11:20 PM   #134
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

The bitter ones. I pity them.
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Old March 30 2013, 11:20 PM   #135
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

teacake wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
USS Firefly wrote: View Post
Well that's easy, it's all the fault of the fans
The audience reaction had been far more severe and critical than any other Trek show, and far less forgiving of the same things that happen in other Trek shows too. The fans just had it out for VOY far more than anything else, so yeah it is partially the fans negative reaction.
But people HATE Enterprise. And the hate is fresher.
Sadly, no. They don't hate the show as much, it's VOY that gets the most bashing these days.
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