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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old June 3 2013, 06:58 AM   #466
Captain Kathryn
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Vulcan Logician wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
I don't see what the problem is with Borg kids. We saw Borg babies in the very first Borg episode.
I'm not disputing the existence of borg babies. I'm just saying that the borg kids in VOY were annoying. (I assume you were being sarcastic, but anyway)

However, I love how they velcro plastic "technology" to those babies in the TNG episode, stuffed them in a drawer and called them borg babies. Classic!
I liked the episodes that featured the Borg kids, Icheb, and Naomi...although I love VOY, it lacked a strong supporting cast and recurring characters. So those episodes where the recurring characters got a chance to shine were good ones in my eyes.
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Old June 3 2013, 07:12 AM   #467
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I didn't much care for the Borg kids. They weren't that annoying they were just... bland and not very entertaining to watch. Though that did make the little friendship between Chakotay and Icheb seem quite natural being they had something in common.
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Old June 3 2013, 07:34 AM   #468
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Well if you like them, you like them. If you don't, you don't. I personally thought the borg children were lame. But I can see that they may have offered something to the show that wasn't there before. When you stand them next to Alexander they seem positively marvelous. Although, I loved R Star's pointy comment I found Chipotle (aka Voyager's first officer) very tolerable. And Kim was one of my favorite voyager characters. I doubt many people share my view on that. It all boils down to taste. And, to me, the borg children taste like crushed up ibuprofen.
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Old June 3 2013, 07:38 AM   #469
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Vulcan Logician wrote: View Post
Well if you like them, you like them. If you don't, you don't. I personally thought the borg children were lame. But I can see that they may have offered something to the show that wasn't there before. When you stand them next to Alexander they seem positively marvelous.


Oh yeah.
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Old June 3 2013, 09:29 AM   #470
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Someone brought up Lindsay Ballard a few posts ago, and that is an excellent example of where VOY messed up. Rather than have a long line of recurring characters, who would have pretty steady work for seven years as they popped up from time-to-time (and didn't do a Carey), interacted with the mains, who we got to know and care about over time, they just created her and expected us to give a damn about her from the word 'go'.
I don't see the real problem with this. I mean, TOS only had three main characters and was always pulling new crew members out of nowhere and expected us to care about them. No one complained then.
Unlike TOS, TNG and DSN who could explain away new crew members by transfers. VOY didn't have this option.
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Old June 3 2013, 01:40 PM   #471
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Vulcan Logician wrote: View Post
Yeah, I even liked "Chipotle" (as my roomate and I call him) and Kim. I mean, every character can't be awesome, and some must even be "lame" to balance things out. I didn't care for Neelix either, but I see what he offered to the show. Case and point: Voyager didn't go wrong. They made it home; and left us with some awesome episodes to re-experience on netflix.
When Voyager was good, it was REALLY good to great, IMHO. And I would even venture to say a good 1/3 or better of all episodes were REALLY good, and another 1/3 being great or near great.


But when it was bad, MAN was it bad! Case in point:

Threshold
The Fight
Tsunkatse
Elogium
Favorite Son
Tattoo
Drive
The Disease
Fair Haven
Spirit FolkThe 37s
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Old June 3 2013, 08:19 PM   #472
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Someone brought up Lindsay Ballard a few posts ago, and that is an excellent example of where VOY messed up. Rather than have a long line of recurring characters, who would have pretty steady work for seven years as they popped up from time-to-time (and didn't do a Carey), interacted with the mains, who we got to know and care about over time, they just created her and expected us to give a damn about her from the word 'go'.
I don't see the real problem with this. I mean, TOS only had three main characters and was always pulling new crew members out of nowhere and expected us to care about them. No one complained then.
Unlike TOS, TNG and DSN who could explain away new crew members by transfers. VOY didn't have this option.
That's not what TOS did though (and TOS was supposed to be a Deep Space Mission away from civilization), TOS would pull out new characters for episodes and act like they were always there and long crewmembers. No one minded this.
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Old June 4 2013, 03:29 AM   #473
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Yeah Subcommander, when it was bad it was BAD. BAD! BAD! BAD! I mentioned that earlier in the thread. And no need to list all of those episodes, you had me at "Threshold".
But all-in-all, great show! Beats the hell out of ENT any day of the week. (And I even find ENT somewhat enjoyable).
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Old June 4 2013, 09:19 AM   #474
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
That's not what TOS did though (and TOS was supposed to be a Deep Space Mission away from civilization), TOS would pull out new characters for episodes and act like they were always there and long crewmembers. No one minded this.
The original Enterprise had around three times the crew of Voyager (150-ish to 430), so they had plenty to spare. Besides there will deep space stations (such as K-7 and others) where they can restock supplies and take on new personnel, Voyager never had that option (except then they took on a handful of people from the Equinox), so the producers/writers/PTB should have been far more involved with the ship as a whole.

It would be easy enough to create 150 names and add to the series bible, so that the whole crew was accounted for from the very beginning. I've done it for a fanfic on a ship with 126 officers and crew, its not that hard--easier if you have a small team of people working on it. It would help add a sense of "realism" to the series, make the ship actually feel like a community bound together by shared experience and regular life-or-death situations.

But then again, after Seven came onboard they couldn't be bothered to do anything with most of the series mains, so all the little people were pretty much screwed of getting anything of worth.
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Old June 4 2013, 10:18 AM   #475
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
That's not what TOS did though (and TOS was supposed to be a Deep Space Mission away from civilization), TOS would pull out new characters for episodes and act like they were always there and long crewmembers. No one minded this.
The original Enterprise had around three times the crew of Voyager (150-ish to 430), so they had plenty to spare. Besides there will deep space stations (such as K-7 and others) where they can restock supplies and take on new personnel, Voyager never had that option (except then they took on a handful of people from the Equinox), so the producers/writers/PTB should have been far more involved with the ship as a whole.

It would be easy enough to create 150 names and add to the series bible, so that the whole crew was accounted for from the very beginning. I've done it for a fanfic on a ship with 126 officers and crew, its not that hard--easier if you have a small team of people working on it. It would help add a sense of "realism" to the series, make the ship actually feel like a community bound together by shared experience and regular life-or-death situations.

But then again, after Seven came onboard they couldn't be bothered to do anything with most of the series mains, so all the little people were pretty much screwed of getting anything of worth.
Plus of course another ship could rendeavous with the Enterprise and transfer crew, another option VOY didn't have.

They simply didn't care about these details. They couldn't even keep track of how many crew they actually it seemd to go up and down all the time regardless of how many crew had died.

I've played in PBEM's and we've always had a pool of NPC's to use. As mentioned above it getting to know more of the crew of VOY instead of random crewman number 6 would have added to the show, not detracted from it. On TNG we got to know the likes of O'Brien fairly well until he moved over to DSN. Speaking of which it had more developed secondary characters than some of VOY's primary characters.

That isn't to say VOY didn't have it's momnets, but VOY could have been so much more, than it was.
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Old June 4 2013, 10:29 AM   #476
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

The entire cast of the west wing was crew on Voyager at one point.

Did you see them?

The vessel is obviously larger than it seems.
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Old June 4 2013, 10:39 AM   #477
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

So I believe, on one of the display screens. Much as the names of some of actors who potrayed The Doctor appeared on a display screen in TNG.
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Old June 4 2013, 10:59 AM   #478
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

The Neutral Zone.

http://virtualsky.tumblr.com/post/10...in-the-episode
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Old June 4 2013, 11:17 AM   #479
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

There weren't that many referrences to DW in ST, however Leverage had quite a few
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Old June 4 2013, 04:56 PM   #480
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
The original Enterprise had around three times the crew of Voyager (150-ish to 430), so they had plenty to spare.
Battlestar Galactica did the same thing though, whenever they needed new characters they'd just introduce someone from the rest of the fleet we'd never seen before.

If VOY had been some bigger ship with hundreds of people, you wouldn't have minded not seeing the entire crew and having new characters appear when needed and disappear when not needed?

"Single ship" types of shows work best when you have a really small crew (Farscape, Andromeda, Lost in Space) that all you need are 5 or so characters to run it, or a really big crew (NuBSG, Babylon 5, etc) that it's believable you'll never see all of them any it's okay to focus on the command team over everyone else.

It would be easy enough to create 150 names and add to the series bible, so that the whole crew was accounted for from the very beginning.
Along with the "We can't ever replace anyone if they die" part of the premise, this would mean keeping track of 150 characters and making sure none of them ever got injured or died or anything since not a single one could ever be replaced and the whole "We need every single member of the crew" part of the premise also holding them back.

Contrast with BSG, where they could kill thousands of nameless faceless extras for dramatic moments without harming Galactica or its functions.

But then again, after Seven came onboard they couldn't be bothered to do anything with most of the series mains, so all the little people were pretty much screwed of getting anything of worth.
Again, TOS did the same thing and no one minded.
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