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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old May 30 2013, 01:46 PM   #451
teacake
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

We got something much more science fictiony and weird.
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Old May 30 2013, 07:33 PM   #452
Zameaze
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Where Voyager went wrong:

B'Elanna Torres is Meg Griffin;

Paris is Eddie Haskell;

Chakotay is Iron Eyes Cody;

Ensign Kim is Opie;

Neelix is Alf;

Janeway is Mommie Dearest;

Tuvox is Token Black;

The only interesting characters were the Doctor and Seven.
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Old May 30 2013, 07:49 PM   #453
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

^Now I have an image in my head of Janeway beating Kes with a wire hanger.
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Old May 30 2013, 11:04 PM   #454
Crazyewok
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

SonOfMogh wrote: View Post
I've read most of this thread, and found some of the discussions quite interesting. I neither hate nor love Voyager unlike some, I think some people need to realise that there where a lot of things the producers were not allowed to do back then.

The thing is, VOY did have the best premise of the Trek shows, however in order to do it justice they would have needed to approach every aspect of the show very differently. They wanted 26 standalone stories per season, and that alone killed 90% of the potential, given this restriction they did a good job. For what it's worth here are my random thoughts;

*As external conflicts would have always been difficult to develop, internal drama should have been a priority. I personally would have had a massive amount of Voyager personnel killed in the pilot, meaning most of the qualified and elite crew are gone. I'd probably have done something like this for the crew;
- Janeway- 1st officer of Voyager, takes command after death of Captain. From a science background, not as much leadership experience as other Trek captains, takes failure really badly and doesn't have absolute confidence in herself, utterly determined.
- Maquis Captain- Grudgingly accepts 1st officer role despite having more experience than Janeway. Early in the show considers mutiny, possibly even attempts it, realises that he doesn't have the crew to staff Voyager and as such is forced to comply
- Cardassian Crewmember- A high ranking military officer captured by the Maquis and held aboard the Maquis ship. Beaten and interrogated on a daily basis for information prior to the Maquis being stranded in the DQ. Initially put in the brig aboard Voy for his own protection. Voyager's Ops Officer was killed in the pilot, Kim has been manning the post but doesn't have the experience to do it and the ship suffers as a result, in the absence of other qualified personnel Janeway allows the Cardassian to take the position, and tutor Kim, over the complete objection of all serving Maquis. Having spent years coordinating Cardassian personnel he does an outstanding job but is a source of conflict.
-EMH- Similar but make his desire for equality a bit more subtle and no mobile emitter. If the crew consider abandoning ship it means abandoning the Dr.
- Kes- Stick with the concept and don't get rid of her! Have her very immature early on, show her desire for a normal life through the early seasons with Voyager crew disturbed a 3 year old is hitting on them etc. Have the show finish with her as an old woman, having lived her entire life parallel to this journey.
- No Neelix, or at least a massively different Neelix.
-As for other characters, either make them more interesting or change them.
It goes without saying the Maquis would have no desire to put on Starfleet uniforms. If that moment comes I'd expect something special to lead up to it

*As for damage/support/repairs etc- Obviously neither proposed extreme is ideal. What they had was ridiculous, the ship may have well been in the AQ. Having no repairs would mean the ship wouldn't be able to survive anything or go anywhere. I think if the hull is badly breached and there is visible damage, they need some kind of explanation for it's repair (use of a friendly alien shipyard for example). It would be great too if there could be some sign this had happened, different coloured panels on some sections for example. Internally, if the bridge is trashed in an episode, it would be better to have it be trashed in the next episode, looking slightly better each week as the debris is cleared and the walls are repainted etc. Even if this all happens in the background in 1 episode, it is better than magically regenerating. Have certain corridors be wrecked and fire damaged for an episode or 2 after big battle, the crew doesn't need to discuss it, just be a nice visual for when they are walking through discussing something else.

*Rationing and low resources should have led to some interesting moral debates. The possibilities here are endless.

*Holodeck shouldn't have been used at all

*Given that Voyager was alone and without the backing of the Federation, their treatment from hostiles should have been far more brutal. Even if an enemy has an advantage over Picard's Enterprise, they don't beam aboard and start executing his crew because they don't want to be at war with the Federation. There were opportunities for some intense scenes. I also hated the way Voyager/Janeway had to "win" at the end of each episode, it comes across like kids TV sometimes. Have Voyager threatened, attacked and narrowly escape with their tail between their legs, watching these proud strong characters have to deal with that is far more interesting to me than Janeway "taking out the garbage"

*On a related note, no Janeway/Borg Queen conflict. It literally became a Saturday morning cartoon. Surviving the journey, and trying to keep some cohesion within such a diverse crew would be far more compelling. Since external threats could never be that well developed (given that Voyager doesn't stop), then the antagonists should be looked at like The Walking Dead's zombies, they cause the problems that create the drama but are never going to be developed.

*Given the show was set to run 7 seasons, a change of pace from time to time might be good. For example if Voyager suffers massive engine damage, have them land on a planet for repairs, but due to the amount of damage that story could run 4 or 5 episodes, just think it through in advance and make the planet a particularly fascinating one and the story that's told there be something that really holds the audience interest.

WOW what I would have said. If this had been doe it would have been the BEST trek!
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Old May 31 2013, 07:57 AM   #455
Vulcan Logician
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Voyager had a few flaws but it was nonetheless a great series.
Strengths:
-characters were in a new predicament (stranded)
-Janeway: very awesome captain (2nd only to the Sisko)
-just plain "Star Trek" goodness and wholesomeness
-I like how they moved to distict portions of the Delta quadrant throughout the series
-eventually they dropped the borg children off

Flaws
-the bad episodes were REEEEEEEEEALLY bad
-Overuse of 7, elimination of Kes, return of Kes and (shudder) the borg children
-(continued shudder) the borg children
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Old May 31 2013, 04:16 PM   #456
Anwar
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I don't see what the problem is with Borg kids. We saw Borg babies in the very first Borg episode.
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Old June 1 2013, 06:53 AM   #457
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Someone brought up Lindsay Ballard a few posts ago, and that is an excellent example of where VOY messed up. Rather than have a long line of recurring characters, who would have pretty steady work for seven years as they popped up from time-to-time (and didn't do a Carey), interacted with the mains, who we got to know and care about over time, they just created her and expected us to give a damn about her from the word 'go'.

Had Ballard been introduced in S1 (maybe even the second or third episode) as an Academy friend of Kim's, who he was attracted to but felt guilty about due to Libby back home, who came on the occasional away team or what not of the next few years before she was killed off, her death and its impact on Kim would have been something they could have used.

The lack of continuity really screwed up VOY, I think. Given their situation, you could have had just about every crewmember named and given a duty station, to be brought out and used when needed, but instead all they did was give us more of the Seven and Doctor Show.

Such a shame really.
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Old June 1 2013, 07:57 AM   #458
TheSubCommander
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Voyager had a few flaws but it was nonetheless a great series.
Strengths:
-characters were in a new predicament (stranded)
-Janeway: very awesome captain (2nd only to the Sisko)
-just plain "Star Trek" goodness and wholesomeness
-I like how they moved to distict portions of the Delta quadrant throughout the series
-eventually they dropped the borg children off

Flaws
-the bad episodes were REEEEEEEEEALLY bad
-Overuse of 7, elimination of Kes, return of Kes and (shudder) the borg children
-(continued shudder) the borg children
Mostly agree, except on Janeway and Sisko. Not saying I didn't like her, just saying my favs are Kirk and Picard.

I have to agree with you on too much emphasis on Seven and Doctor. Liked both, but became too lopsided by season 7, which is my least favorite season, overall. I liked seeing Seven and/or Doctor-centric episodes, but not almost every week.

Also agree Kes should not have been booted off completely. I think there was room for Kes to be a recurring character, sort of like a "caretaker in training" where we get to see how she has progressed since leaving voyager on each visit...sort of like Q. And I would have liked to see Kes having something to do with Voyager getting past the Borg and getting home. It was sad to see no Kes at all in the finale.


The lack of continuity really screwed up VOY, I think. Given their situation, you could have had just about every crewmember named and given a duty station, to be brought out and used when needed, but instead all they did was give us more of the Seven and Doctor Show.

Such a shame really.
There was continuity and there were references to past events, but if you mean lack long story arcs and lack of serial feel, I agree. Too many episodes were too self contained, IMHO. THat is where DS9 succeeded and where VOY could have been better.

I think VOY had great characters overall, yes I even think unpopular ones like Chakotay and Kim were alright, just that other than Janeway, Doctor, and Seven, the characters were often underutilized or could have been written better.
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Old June 1 2013, 07:35 PM   #459
Anwar
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Someone brought up Lindsay Ballard a few posts ago, and that is an excellent example of where VOY messed up. Rather than have a long line of recurring characters, who would have pretty steady work for seven years as they popped up from time-to-time (and didn't do a Carey), interacted with the mains, who we got to know and care about over time, they just created her and expected us to give a damn about her from the word 'go'.
I don't see the real problem with this. I mean, TOS only had three main characters and was always pulling new crew members out of nowhere and expected us to care about them. No one complained then.
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Old June 1 2013, 08:11 PM   #460
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Someone brought up Lindsay Ballard a few posts ago, and that is an excellent example of where VOY messed up. Rather than have a long line of recurring characters, who would have pretty steady work for seven years as they popped up from time-to-time (and didn't do a Carey), interacted with the mains, who we got to know and care about over time, they just created her and expected us to give a damn about her from the word 'go'.
I don't see the real problem with this. I mean, TOS only had three main characters and was always pulling new crew members out of nowhere and expected us to care about them. No one complained then.
TOS was a show from the 60s, VOY was a show from the 90s and by the time the 90s came along, things like continuity and story arcs became more important, shows like X-Files and Babylon 5 made focus on contiunty and story arcs popular, so having Voyager ignore that makes it seem like it was behind the times in the 90s. Voyager seemed like an 80s TV show in the 90s.
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Old June 2 2013, 03:29 AM   #461
Anwar
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Someone brought up Lindsay Ballard a few posts ago, and that is an excellent example of where VOY messed up. Rather than have a long line of recurring characters, who would have pretty steady work for seven years as they popped up from time-to-time (and didn't do a Carey), interacted with the mains, who we got to know and care about over time, they just created her and expected us to give a damn about her from the word 'go'.
I don't see the real problem with this. I mean, TOS only had three main characters and was always pulling new crew members out of nowhere and expected us to care about them. No one complained then.
TOS was a show from the 60s, VOY was a show from the 90s and by the time the 90s came along, things like continuity and story arcs became more important, shows like X-Files and Babylon 5 made focus on contiunty and story arcs popular, so having Voyager ignore that makes it seem like it was behind the times in the 90s. Voyager seemed like an 80s TV show in the 90s.
If they'd openly advertised that VOY would only have a main cast of 3-4, and the rest would be secondaries, would there be as many complaints over the lack of secondary characters and how only a few got treated to development in the Primaries?

Heck, Xena only had 2 main characters and no one complained.
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Old June 2 2013, 05:06 AM   #462
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Yeah, I even liked "Chipotle" (as my roomate and I call him) and Kim. I mean, every character can't be awesome, and some must even be "lame" to balance things out. I didn't care for Neelix either, but I see what he offered to the show. Case and point: Voyager didn't go wrong. They made it home; and left us with some awesome episodes to re-experience on netflix.
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Old June 2 2013, 06:10 AM   #463
JirinPanthosa
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I think overall Voyager was a good show, but if they weren't going to do a show about a ship stranded alone low on resources, they shouldn't have stranded the ship in the DQ to begin with. Voyager's approach to writing would have worked a whole lot better as an honest TNG clone.

It did have its fair share of really good episodes but no consistency and no attempt to hide the blatant terrible attempts at ratings grabbings. Have you ever heard the expression 'A tactic known is a tactic blown'? Cheap attempts to increase ratings only work if it's not super-obvious it's a cheap attempt to increase ratings.

My problem with the Lindsay Ballard episode had more to do with the resolution. It made no sense to me that just because she was revived and genetically altered she would have no problem returning to the people who mutilated her and calling them family. That's another of the general problems with Voyager's writing, it backed off from moral issues that TNG and DS9 confronted.
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Old June 3 2013, 06:10 AM   #464
Vulcan Logician
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
I don't see what the problem is with Borg kids. We saw Borg babies in the very first Borg episode.
I'm not disputing the existence of borg babies. I'm just saying that the borg kids in VOY were annoying. (I assume you were being sarcastic, but anyway)

However, I love how they velcro plastic "technology" to those babies in the TNG episode, stuffed them in a drawer and called them borg babies. Classic!
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Old June 3 2013, 06:16 AM   #465
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Am I alone in liking Icheb and the other Borg kids?
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