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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old May 17 2013, 05:50 AM   #391
teacake
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

His crusty rock like ass.
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Old May 17 2013, 06:57 AM   #392
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

He'd been looking after the Ocampa for a thousand years.

Who knows how old he was when he started, and who knows when Susperia got sick of the sight of him and his banjo and just bolted.

New tack.

Janeway and Ransom both started at Caretaker and and they both managed to trek 30 thousands of light years in 6 terran years. Ransom blamed most of it on a lucky wormhole, lets assume that wasn't a clever lie to cover up their hobby as vivisectionists.

They both charted completely different courses home.

I've always blamed this on Equinox not being able to stay in open space for as long as Voyager, so they had to plan a more circuitous route hopping between closer supply potential destinations and having to completely ignore trips between two stars Voayger was more than Capable of. Equinox just wasn't robust enough to follow Voyagers more direct home.

That's what I've always said.

But what if the opposite was true?

How about this?

Equinox charted the more direct/faster route to the Alpha Quadrant, and then 6 months later Kathryn who scribbled an identical course home hours after the events of Caretaker asked Neelix what he thought of their proposed route?

He laughed at her and explained that she would lose half her crew in the first week if she kept strictly to this path without actually saying the words "Krotonian Guard" and then got out a marker pen and showed Captain Janeway a more indirect route that did intersect with valuable unclaimed worlds, and hubs of trade and economy which welcomed strangers from far away, while still inching them noticeably towards Federation Space.

It's Neelix's fault.

If not for Neelix, Janeway would have caught up with Ransom by year two, since they both had the same training, and were in possession of roughly the same technology, where Ransom would have been weathered but yet not completely broken by the Delta Quadrant, and he'd probably have smoothened out the rough edges of Janeways catch up where from she'd probably be insessently finding some glaring clues that she wasn't the first Starfleet Captain to explore out that far.

Yes.

Blame Neelix.

If not for Neelix, Voyager would have caught up with Equinox, found that lucky wormhole that allowed them to skip any and all Borg adventures completely, while the combined resources of the two ships working in unison would have meant that life in their little fleet would have been delightful and safe, as they pottered on to Earth.
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Old May 17 2013, 07:20 AM   #393
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Anwar wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Voyager went wrong when they decided not to commit to their exciting premise.
The original premise was just "Lost in Space", though.
And Lost In Space had a good premise. It just had campy, moronic scripting and production.

I was excited after Caretaker, but then they decided to throw away the survival aspect and the tension between the crew and make it TNG lite.
The survival stuff partially didn't make sense (Honestly, WHY can't they make new torpedoes?!) and the tensions between the crews was never going to last more than 2 seasons or so. Especially once DS9 killed off the rest of the Maquis.
Yes they should have been able to make new torpedoes, but the massive energy reserves it takes to power a starship, the constant repairs, the morale problems. They were never low on power after the fifth episode, the damage they took in one episode never persisted to the next episode, single crewmembers dying never reduced the number of people on the ship.

And the Maquis immediately accepted Starfleet regulations, only addressing that in Learning Curve and then disappearing completely. They only addressed the difficulty of maintaining Starfleet morality when you're isolated and alone in one very early episode then they never questioned it again.
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Old May 17 2013, 07:47 AM   #394
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post

And Lost In Space had a good premise. It just had campy, moronic scripting and production.
Okay, Voyager suffered from "Gilligan Syndrome". It had a premise that basically meant the one major goal of the series could never be accomplished without ending the show because they never bothered giving the show any other major plots beyond that.

And even the "Lost in Space" folks realized that having the crew all be antagonistic to one another (The Robinsons vs Dr Smith) wouldn't work after a while. The reason they made Smith a buffoon and ended the internal conflict was because they realized it was unsustainable. Same for the Fleeter/Maquis conflict, that wouldn't have lasted more then 1 and a half seasons even if they went for long-term conflict.

Yes they should have been able to make new torpedoes, but the massive energy reserves it takes to power a starship, the constant repairs, the morale problems. They were never low on power after the fifth episode, the damage they took in one episode never persisted to the next episode, single crewmembers dying never reduced the number of people on the ship.
Well, they go by Suns and Nebulas all the time. Those are easy sources of power. It would've been nice to see them do this, but saying they had no way of replenishing power is...well, wrong.

They also shot themselves in the foot by having the "No Support" thing in the premise. No Support means they can't ever fix any damage to the ship, and no fixing means the show would be over in less than a season.

As for morale, this sort of thing has happened before to Kirk and Picard. They both returned home safely and quickly, so they knew there was a precedent.

And the Maquis immediately accepted Starfleet regulations, only addressing that in Learning Curve and then disappearing completely.
See above, the Maquis conflict wouldn't have realistically lasted very long anyways.
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Old May 17 2013, 08:15 AM   #395
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

There didn't need to be open conflict between the Maquis and Starfleet, but some evidence on screen that they were different kinds of people. It was ridiculous that they all jumped into SF uniforms at the end of Caretaker.

It was sort of ridiculous that the Starfleet personnel continued to wear uniforms past the first season or so, but that's another issue altogether.

I can see that in Voyager's situation that everybody would be willing to work together and be friendly, and conflict between them would be kind of silly, what I cannot understand is how Chakotay and the Maquis were so willing to immediately assimilate into Starfleet.
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Old May 17 2013, 08:30 AM   #396
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

If the ship wasn't constantly maintained, balanced "everywere" it blows up or stops forever.
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Old May 17 2013, 08:39 AM   #397
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
There didn't need to be open conflict between the Maquis and Starfleet, but some evidence on screen that they were different kinds of people.
Yes. I might have joined the Maquis but there is no way I could just fit into Starfleet. If I was sucked into Janeway's crew, given a uniform and schedule and a list of Starfleet regulations and expectations I would be utterly fail. When I was younger I'd probably end up in the brig, now I'd probably weasel my way around until I found a way to stay under Starfleet radar and just putter.

I would never adjust.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:18 PM   #398
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

If I was a Maquis I'd be utterly pissed and resentful towards Janeway. Especially when she goes on one of her rants about Federation values and that a replicator is more valuable than my life, because I've been conscripted into her personal military and told by her that she's willing to sacrifice my life for values I don't believe in.
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Old May 17 2013, 02:06 PM   #399
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

They were given realistic commissions, along with the subsequent privileges and benefits.

It probably evened out.

Do you think someone like Picard or Riker would let that scum do any thing more important than swab the decks?
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Old May 17 2013, 02:48 PM   #400
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
They were given realistic commissions, along with the subsequent privileges and benefits.

It probably evened out.

Do you think someone like Picard or Riker would let that scum do any thing more important than swab the decks?
Other than Chakotay and Torres were any Maquis given more important tasks than that and making shuttles?
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Old May 17 2013, 03:06 PM   #401
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

From Memory Alpha...

Lieutenant Ayala (Maquis, relief conn)
Crewman Kurt Bendera (Maquis, engineering, 2371-2372 KIA)
Crewman Carlson (Maquis, 2371-2378)
Commander Chakotay (Maquis, XO)
Crewman Chell (Maquis)
Crewman Kenneth Dalby (Maquis)
Crewman Doyle (Maquis)
Crewman Gerron (Maquis, 2371-2378)
Crewman Mariah Henley (Maquis, 2371-2378)
Ensign Hogan (Maquis, 2371-2372 KIA)
Crewman Jackson (Maquis)
Crewman Jarvin (Maquis)
Crewman Michael Jonas (Maquis, 2371-2372 KIA)
Crewman Jor (Maquis, engineering)
Crewman O'Donnell (Maquis, 2371-2378)
Ensign Seska (Maquis/Cardassian spy, engineering, defected to the Kazon 2371)
Lieutenant Lon Suder (Maquis, engineering, 2371-2373 KIA)
Ensign Tabor (Maquis, 2371- )
Lieutenant B'Elanna Torres (Maquis, chief engineer, 2371-2378)
Crewman Yosa (Maquis, engineering 2371-2378)

These are he Maquis we know about, but I'm more worried about the Maquis which we don't know about.

Um.

How the hell come is Lon Suder a Lieutenant?
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Old May 17 2013, 04:45 PM   #402
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

R. Star wrote: View Post
If I was a Maquis I'd be utterly pissed and resentful towards Janeway. Especially when she goes on one of her rants about Federation values and that a replicator is more valuable than my life, because I've been conscripted into her personal military and told by her that she's willing to sacrifice my life for values I don't believe in.
That is based on an assumption, we don't know what transpired between destroying the Array and the scene where we saw them all in uniform. I can and have made the case that becoming Starfleet was Chakotay's idea. For all we know they all voted to become Starfleet. You would like to believe this, but that doesn't make it true.

In fact you are also assuming that basic Federation and Maquis values are different. Based of what we have seen they don't appear much different.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
How the hell come is Lon Suder a Lieutenant?
Because

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
They were given realistic commissions, along with the subsequent privileges and benefits.
At the time people thought he was creepy, but they hadn't realized he was a serial killer.
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Old May 17 2013, 04:50 PM   #403
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Brit wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
If I was a Maquis I'd be utterly pissed and resentful towards Janeway. Especially when she goes on one of her rants about Federation values and that a replicator is more valuable than my life, because I've been conscripted into her personal military and told by her that she's willing to sacrifice my life for values I don't believe in.
That is based on an assumption, we don't know what transpired between destroying the Array and the scene where we saw them all in uniform. I can and have made the case that becoming Starfleet was Chakotay's idea. For all we know they all voted to become Starfleet. You would like to believe this, but that doesn't make it true.

In fact you are also assuming that basic Federation and Maquis values are different. Based of what we have seen they are not much different.
From the Maquis perspective, the Federation abandoned their colonies.

There should have been a lot more resentment among the Maquis than we saw.
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Old May 17 2013, 04:57 PM   #404
Brit
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

teya wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
If I was a Maquis I'd be utterly pissed and resentful towards Janeway. Especially when she goes on one of her rants about Federation values and that a replicator is more valuable than my life, because I've been conscripted into her personal military and told by her that she's willing to sacrifice my life for values I don't believe in.
That is based on an assumption, we don't know what transpired between destroying the Array and the scene where we saw them all in uniform. I can and have made the case that becoming Starfleet was Chakotay's idea. For all we know they all voted to become Starfleet. You would like to believe this, but that doesn't make it true.

In fact you are also assuming that basic Federation and Maquis values are different. Based of what we have seen they are don't appear much different.
From the Maquis perspective, the Federation abandoned their colonies.

There should have been a lot more resentment among the Maquis than we saw.
This is as assumption too, you have a group of people with a lot the same background facing a common enemy. That can level all kinds of differences in a hurry.
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Old May 17 2013, 05:28 PM   #405
teya
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Brit wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

That is based on an assumption, we don't know what transpired between destroying the Array and the scene where we saw them all in uniform. I can and have made the case that becoming Starfleet was Chakotay's idea. For all we know they all voted to become Starfleet. You would like to believe this, but that doesn't make it true.

In fact you are also assuming that basic Federation and Maquis values are different. Based of what we have seen they are don't appear much different.
From the Maquis perspective, the Federation abandoned their colonies.

There should have been a lot more resentment among the Maquis than we saw.
This is as assumption too, you have a group of people with a lot the same background facing a common enemy. That can level all kinds of differences in a hurry.
Of course it's all assumption.

As are your assumptions that they'd all get along hunky dory.

However, mine is based on an understanding of history. There's still a lot of resentment in Indian Country over broken treaties--a hundred years later. That's not an assumption. That's fact.
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