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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old June 30 2013, 07:17 PM   #256
sariel2005
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

I'm unfamiliar with any Doctor Who games, except for a board game (4th Doctor) and a couple of RPG gaming guides produced for the 5th and 7th Doctors. I assume the ones you're referring to are computer games or online?
They are free online games offered by the BBC Doctor Who website, I think they were made available outside the Uk by steam or some-such. They are to date the only things that are officially stated to be Canon ( and do have continuity errors, that make them difficult to reconcile with the TV show, Ironically).

What Roddenberry did or did not consider canon is something that changed over the years. As some have said here, sometimes it depended on which company owned which rights, and which products were actually making money. I always considered TAS to be canon, which is why I cannot consider Enterprise to be canon since it violates so much of what was established in TAS (ie. Captain/Commodore April). And I applaud anyone who disavows the mess that was Star Trek V.
As with the continuity clashes with the aforementioned games, this again touches on something often missed in discussions of Canon, the difference between Canon ( which body of works are official and refered to in other stories) and Continuity ( making sure a series is internally consistent).

Continuity is not actually linked to Canon, for example both Assignment Earth and Turnabout Intruder are canon.
Continuity would be the thing that makes sure that someone disintegrated by a rogue starfleet captain in the end of the second season does not turn up in your season three finale, for example . The fact that TAS is canon would not mean that Enterprise wasn't even if there are continuity clashes ( I have to say though I am not entirely sure how Robert April in TAS clashes with Enterprise?)

Equally separate is actual Chronology, which is the order episodes are placed and when they are dated too ( though obviously continuity plays a role in this). For example the Okuda's placing TOS in broadcast order, or placing TWOK in 2285. everyone accepts the stories as canon ( well I assume so anyway) but when and in what order they occur is up for grabs.
There is no real reason not to place TOS largely in stardate order for example, given the general trend for Stardates to increase over time, or the placing of TWOK fifteen years after space seed.


As to the Trek/Who crossover - tipping my hand to my view on Who canon... Given no canon for Doctor Who by definition it is not canon and with Star Trek, well official sources say that spin offs such as books are not canon just what we see on the screen. So its not canon. That said its a rather good story ( would love to have seen more of Kirk and the fourth Doctor interacting though) and worth any fan of both series time.
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Old June 30 2013, 07:48 PM   #257
Timewalker
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

sariel2005 wrote: View Post
I'm unfamiliar with any Doctor Who games, except for a board game (4th Doctor) and a couple of RPG gaming guides produced for the 5th and 7th Doctors. I assume the ones you're referring to are computer games or online?
They are free online games offered by the BBC Doctor Who website, I think they were made available outside the Uk by steam or some-such. They are to date the only things that are officially stated to be Canon ( and do have continuity errors, that make them difficult to reconcile with the TV show, Ironically).
What Roddenberry did or did not consider canon is something that changed over the years. As some have said here, sometimes it depended on which company owned which rights, and which products were actually making money. I always considered TAS to be canon, which is why I cannot consider Enterprise to be canon since it violates so much of what was established in TAS (ie. Captain/Commodore April). And I applaud anyone who disavows the mess that was Star Trek V.
As with the continuity clashes with the aforementioned games, this again touches on something often missed in discussions of Canon, the difference between Canon ( which body of works are official and refered to in other stories) and Continuity ( making sure a series is internally consistent).

Continuity is not actually linked to Canon, for example both Assignment Earth and Turnabout Intruder are canon.
Continuity would be the thing that makes sure that someone disintegrated by a rogue starfleet captain in the end of the second season does not turn up in your season three finale, for example . The fact that TAS is canon would not mean that Enterprise wasn't even if there are continuity clashes ( I have to say though I am not entirely sure how Robert April in TAS clashes with Enterprise?)

Equally separate is actual Chronology, which is the order episodes are placed and when they are dated too ( though obviously continuity plays a role in this). For example the Okuda's placing TOS in broadcast order, or placing TWOK in 2285. everyone accepts the stories as canon ( well I assume so anyway) but when and in what order they occur is up for grabs.
There is no real reason not to place TOS largely in stardate order for example, given the general trend for Stardates to increase over time, or the placing of TWOK fifteen years after space seed.


As to the Trek/Who crossover - tipping my hand to my view on Who canon... Given no canon for Doctor Who by definition it is not canon and with Star Trek, well official sources say that spin offs such as books are not canon just what we see on the screen. So its not canon. That said its a rather good story ( would love to have seen more of Kirk and the fourth Doctor interacting though) and worth any fan of both series time.
Do you have a link for the games? I'd be interested in checking that out. Of course, with my luck it might not be available to Canadians...

I never noticed a dead crewmember showing up later in Turnabout Intruder! Mind you, I did notice Kirk making a new doorway for himself when he left the briefing room. I don't understand your reference to Assignment: Earth, though. What am I missing?

Robert April clashes with Enterprise because Robert April was the first Captain of the Enterprise. Not some twit named Jonathan Archer. If they'd used April and Sarah Poole in the Enterprise series (with or without the dog; I liked Porthos), I wouldn't have complained half as much. I'd still have complained about the stupid stories, but not about who the Captain was.

I've never been an Exact Chronology purist, in the sense of freaking out over stardates. I never did get to watch TOS in its original broadcast order, so it was a very interesting revelation to me to find out that the first episode shown is not the one originally intended, and definitely not the first one shot.

As for seeing Kirk and the Fourth Doctor interacting... that's what fanfiction is for (and I've read some really good ones).



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Old June 30 2013, 08:13 PM   #258
The Old Mixer
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

April was the first captain of the Constitution-class Enterprise, NCC-1701. The establishment of the NX-01 doesn't change that, and April was included in the Okuda chronology despite being established in TAS.

Also, the Okuda chronology put TOS in production order, not broadcast.
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Old June 30 2013, 08:14 PM   #259
sariel2005
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

Do you have a link for the games? I'd be interested in checking that out. Of course, with my luck it might not be available to Canadians...

The BBC Who website offers the games free on this page:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006...es/funandgames

not sure if they are available overseas, if not these people offer them as a bundle though they charge.

http://www.legacygames.com/download-...+Bundle+for+PC

There are other sites you can get the games free I am told....

I never noticed a dead crewmember showing up later in Turnabout Intruder! Mind you, I did notice Kirk making a new doorway for himself when he left the briefing room. I don't understand your reference to Assignment: Earth, though. What am I missing?
Actually meant "The Omega Glory" not Assignment Earth, in which poor Lt Galloway is killed by Ron Tracy. He shows up in Turnabout intruder.
( Lt Leslie also came back from the dead, following having his blood drained in Obsession, but at least he was not vaporized - often wondered whether he had a craving for the blood of the living afterwards though....)


Robert April clashes with Enterprise because Robert April was the first Captain of the Enterprise. Not some twit named Jonathan Archer. If they'd used April and Sarah Poole in the Enterprise series (with or without the dog; I liked Porthos), I wouldn't have complained half as much. I'd still have complained about the stupid stories, but not about who the Captain was.
In fairness April was the first captain of USS Enterprise NCC-1701, with the NX 01 simply being a different ship. in terms of continuity Sarah April being said to be the first CMO on a warp capable ship is probably a bigger glitch ( and contradicted by earlier TAS episodes by for example the presence of the Bonaventure).
Again this harkens to the difference between canon and continuity - maybe after seeing years of UNIT dating debates, I'm just more jaded....
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Old June 30 2013, 08:16 PM   #260
sariel2005
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

Also, the Okuda chronology put TOS in production order, not broadcast.
D'Oh !!! meant to say Production order!
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Old June 30 2013, 08:47 PM   #261
Timewalker
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
April was the first captain of the Constitution-class Enterprise, NCC-1701. The establishment of the NX-01 doesn't change that, and April was included in the Okuda chronology despite being established in TAS.

Also, the Okuda chronology put TOS in production order, not broadcast.
What is this "Okuda chronology"?

And excuse me, but some of us aren't up on all the different makes and models and classes of starships. I'm not up on that kind of stuff for RL terrestrial cars and trucks, and tend not to notice much of this stuff in ST. All I know is that some starships are bigger than others.

sariel2005 wrote: View Post
Do you have a link for the games? I'd be interested in checking that out. Of course, with my luck it might not be available to Canadians...

The BBC Who website offers the games free on this page:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006...es/funandgames

not sure if they are available overseas, if not these people offer them as a bundle though they charge.

http://www.legacygames.com/download-...+Bundle+for+PC

There are other sites you can get the games free I am told....
Thank you.

I never noticed a dead crewmember showing up later in Turnabout Intruder! Mind you, I did notice Kirk making a new doorway for himself when he left the briefing room. I don't understand your reference to Assignment: Earth, though. What am I missing?
Actually meant "The Omega Glory" not Assignment Earth, in which poor Lt Galloway is killed by Ron Tracy. He shows up in Turnabout intruder.
( Lt Leslie also came back from the dead, following having his blood drained in Obsession, but at least he was not vaporized - often wondered whether he had a craving for the blood of the living afterwards though....)
He probably has a twin brother. If the Delaney sisters can serve on Voyager, why can't Leslie have a twin brother on the Enterprise?

(actually, I've always wondered why twins or even siblings would be allowed on the same ship - must get confusing when the Captain bellows for them by their last name and they have to stop to figure out which one is wanted)


Robert April clashes with Enterprise because Robert April was the first Captain of the Enterprise. Not some twit named Jonathan Archer. If they'd used April and Sarah Poole in the Enterprise series (with or without the dog; I liked Porthos), I wouldn't have complained half as much. I'd still have complained about the stupid stories, but not about who the Captain was.
In fairness April was the first captain of USS Enterprise NCC-1701, with the NX 01 simply being a different ship. in terms of continuity Sarah April being said to be the first CMO on a warp capable ship is probably a bigger glitch ( and contradicted by earlier TAS episodes by for example the presence of the Bonaventure).
Again this harkens to the difference between canon and continuity - maybe after seeing years of UNIT dating debates, I'm just more jaded....
It's the Daleks' fault. (yes, I know there are a couple of really annoying continuity messes in the Pertwee stories that make it impossible to mesh with later Davison stories, which likely further messes things up later on...)
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Old June 30 2013, 10:46 PM   #262
T'Girl
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

sariel2005 wrote: View Post
... in which poor Lt Galloway is killed by Ron Tracy. He shows up in Turnabout intruder.
It wasn't that unusual for one actor to play different characters on TOS. The character played by the actor David Ross in Turnabout intruder is only referred to as "Lieutenant," and never by name.

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Old June 30 2013, 11:22 PM   #263
The Old Mixer
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
April was the first captain of the Constitution-class Enterprise, NCC-1701. The establishment of the NX-01 doesn't change that, and April was included in the Okuda chronology despite being established in TAS.

Also, the Okuda chronology put TOS in production order, not broadcast.
What is this "Okuda chronology"?

And excuse me, but some of us aren't up on all the different makes and models and classes of starships. I'm not up on that kind of stuff for RL terrestrial cars and trucks, and tend not to notice much of this stuff in ST. All I know is that some starships are bigger than others.
I was responding to something said by another poster when referring to the Chronology.

The NX-01 and NCC-1701 are two different ships that served a century apart. The NX-01 doesn't violate the idea of April as the first captain of the 1701 any more than the ringship on the rec room wall in TMP.
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Old June 30 2013, 11:31 PM   #264
sariel2005
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

It wasn't that unusual for one actor to play different characters on TOS. The character played by the actor David Ross in Turnabout intruder is only referred to as "Lieutenant," and never by name.
He is named in the end credits.

He did play a different character in Day of the Dove however.
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Old July 1 2013, 12:24 AM   #265
T'Girl
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

sariel2005 wrote: View Post
He is named in the end credits.
But not within the episode itself.

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Old July 1 2013, 12:40 AM   #266
Timewalker
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

@sariel2005: I checked out the games, but they're not free for people outside the UK and I saw no provision for a trial version before deciding to purchase.
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Old July 3 2013, 01:34 AM   #267
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
There's a wonderful book out there, an over-sized paperback called THE STAR TREK CHRONOLOGY.

It's a detailed timeline that puts dates to TOS. "The Cage" is in 2253, WNM is 2265, the first season is 2266-67, and so on.

Paramount considers it canon. I accept it as such. Do you?
Yes. It's gathered as much as possible together in one spot from the 40+ years of film and TV.
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Old July 7 2013, 04:30 PM   #268
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Robert April clashes with Enterprise because Robert April was the first Captain of the Enterprise. Not some twit named Jonathan Archer. If they'd used April and Sarah Poole in the Enterprise series (with or without the dog; I liked Porthos), I wouldn't have complained half as much. I'd still have complained about the stupid stories, but not about who the Captain was.
Note that "The Counter-Clock Incident" explicitly said that Sarah April was "...the first medical officer aboard a ship equipped with warp drive" in reference to the Enterprise, completely ignoring the starship Bonaventure from the earlier TAS episode "The Time Trap" let alone the TOS episode "Metamorphosis" which had previously put the invention of warp drive much much earlier, and think about how stange it is to get nitpicky about the name Johnathan Archer on what was clearly supposed to be a different starship Enterprise (they don't even look alike) that even flew under a different flag to Kirk's version (Earth instead of the UFP) a whole century earlier.
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Old July 7 2013, 04:42 PM   #269
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Robert April clashes with Enterprise because Robert April was the first Captain of the Enterprise. Not some twit named Jonathan Archer. If they'd used April and Sarah Poole in the Enterprise series (with or without the dog; I liked Porthos), I wouldn't have complained half as much. I'd still have complained about the stupid stories, but not about who the Captain was.
Actually, James Smith was the first Captain of the Enterprise. How dare that twit Gene Roddenberry claim it was Robert April.
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Old July 8 2013, 03:17 AM   #270
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Re: Do You Believe the Official Chronology?

duplicate
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