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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 29 2013, 10:03 PM   #31
blssdwlf
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

I dunno. They cutaway from McCoy before he starts to answer Mirror Spock and the next time we see him he needs someone to hold him steady. Scotty guides him up the transporter steps and holds onto him all the way up till Spock beams them out.

McCoy doesn't seem to snap out of it till after he's back in the regular universe.

Valeris seems to have snapped out of it relatively quickly when she answers Kirk that there is only the prototype BOP.
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Old March 29 2013, 10:08 PM   #32
trevanian
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Joby wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
Joby wrote: View Post
Never before in Trek history did someone react that way to a Vulcan mind meld, so agaiin it was hard not to miss Nicholas Meyer/Leonard Nimoy's rape allegory.
Unless you're with Writers Guild West and/or have seen all versions of the scripts, I don't think you can necessarily accuse only two specific writers. The writing credits were determined by the Guild through arbitration; Meyer shared screenwriting credit with Denny Martin Flinn, and Nimoy shared story credit with Lawrence Konner and Mark Rosenthal.
Meyer was the director and Nimoy played the character, a character he knew better then anyone and he did contribute to the story. Those two guys could have altered that scene if they wanted to, no matter who wrote it. What's your point other then taking a useless shot at me?
Also, Konner/Rosenthal apparently played the WGA game even better than the first two guys on TVH ... Nimoy's account is that they just turned in all his notes as their work. They DID have one good idea, kind of taken from ULYSSES I think, but none of that is in the movie. Also I think they were big on making the prison stuff include Klingons we already knew, which could have been great. But again, not reflected in final product at all.

That scene is Meyer/Flinn with a heavy dose of Nimoy.
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Old March 29 2013, 10:29 PM   #33
CaptainMurdock
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Mirror Spock did it to McCoy and McCoy didn't seem particularly traumatized.
Those wild eyes did the talking for us.
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Old March 29 2013, 10:58 PM   #34
Flake
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

I agree the characters are not spot on but I think the movie is great. The Valeris mind meld was a very powerful scene indeed but I don't understand why Spock pushes for the location of the peace conference when immediately after the mind meld he just contacts Sulu anyway! It was not necessary to forcibly try to find that information.
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Old March 29 2013, 11:36 PM   #35
The Festivus Awakens
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Flake wrote: View Post
I agree the characters are not spot on but I think the movie is great. The Valeris mind meld was a very powerful scene indeed but I don't understand why Spock pushes for the location of the peace conference when immediately after the mind meld he just contacts Sulu anyway! It was not necessary to forcibly try to find that information.
Yeah, the the fact that Spock says to contact Sulu and ask for the location of the conference seconds later sort of undercuts the necessity for the forced mind meld and makes it look worse.

However, perhaps it was the mind meld that clued him in that Sulu would know the location of the conference. Like for instance Valeris knew the sector the conference was in but not the exact location, and Spock knew Sulu was in that sector. Or Valeris knew the ships that were assigned to patrol the region around the conference (without knowing its precise location), and revealed that Excelsior was one of them. Those are both pieces of information one of the lower level conspirators like her might know.
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Old March 30 2013, 12:03 AM   #36
Sky
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Spock was also trying to find out the other co-conspirators. The location was not the only information he was seeking from Valeris.

People have compared the mind meld to other mind melds in Trek and wondered why this one had the insinuation of rape. Maybe it was not because Valeris is female, but because she is Vulcan and thus capable of trying to resist someone invading her mind. She has the same telepathic abilities as Spock and is trying to fight him all through the scene. It's an extremely powerful scene, made even better when Spock quits the mind meld and his voice shakes when he says "She does not know."

I always prefer to think of Valeris as Saavik, though. That would explain the intense feeling of betrayal Spock seems to have.

I'm not very surprised about Kirk's feelings towards Klingons, either. After all, they just very recently killed his son. The film is very much about old times changing into new times, and old warriors not being able to give up their old grudges.

TUC is still my favorite Trek film.
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Old March 30 2013, 06:22 PM   #37
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

[QUOTE=King Daniel;7869808]
Locutus of Bored wrote:
some handwave explaination of Kirk's sudden racism (like, say, Peter's ship is ambushed and he's killed leaving Kirk with no family at all) etc.
It's been a long time since I've read it, but I think in the novel Chang's Bird of Prey had been attacking Federation or civilian outposts basically before the movie starts. Carol Marcus was on one them and Kirk goes and visits her in the hospital afterwards which sort of reopens the David wound. I think at the end of the novel he goes back to her and has a different outlook as she's making her recovery. I have no idea if any of that was ever intended to be part of the script or if it was an invention of the author.
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Old March 30 2013, 09:55 PM   #38
Admiral_Sisko
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Sky wrote: View Post
I'm not very surprised about Kirk's feelings towards Klingons, either. After all, they just very recently killed his son. The film is very much about old times changing into new times, and old warriors not being able to give up their old grudges.
Nor am I, and I also don't find Kirk's behavior surprising in light of how he treated the Klingons in The Final Frontier. The Klingons were guests aboard his ship, but there was no mention of peace talks or abolishing the Neutral Zone. Kirk knew that the Klingons were going to return to their space once the mission was over.

The circumstances are different in TUC. The Klingons are once again guests aboard the Enterprise, but their presence signifies the beginning of the end of hostilities between the Klingon Empire and the Federation, hotilities that have lasted since before Kirk was born.

Kirk was due to stand down from active duty, though it's not clear what he was slated to do beyond that. TUC was certainly his final mission aboard the Enterprise as its commanding officer, a final assingment in a career spanning more than four decades, including Kirk's time as an academy cadet. He'd spent the majority of that time protecting the Federation, risking his life and the lives of his crew on more than one occasion. Now, suddenly, as he's about to step aside, he's been volunteered for a mission as part of a peace envoy with the Federation's fiercest rival, a rival who's officers killed his son only years before, and everything that he has previously risked his life to protect and preserve is about to change, perhaps forever.

It's easy to deal with people if there's a known endpoint or resolution to the situation, but it's much more difficult when the people in question may bring about a change in one's own life. Kirk had never known a Federation at peace with the Klingons, and the idea of a disruption in the status quo scared him. It's not surprising that the fear he experienced drove him to say things he later regretted.

"Gorkon had to die before I understood how prejudiced I was."

In the end, Kirk did his duty, and helped to preserve the possibility of peace that Gorkon died to bring about, an action that was absolutely in character for him.
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Old March 30 2013, 09:58 PM   #39
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
some handwave explaination of Kirk's sudden racism (like, say, Peter's ship is ambushed and he's killed leaving Kirk with no family at all) etc.
He had enough reason with his own son murdered at the hands of Klingons. Bigger loss than Peter biting the dust.

You see his reaction in TSFS, referring to them as "Klingon bastards," instead of "bastards," which implies (strongly) using their species name as a pejorative (the way a white racist would say "n***** bastard" instead of the latter, which would have been enough for one without racist intent). Add his TOS behavior in "Errand of Mercy," "Friday's Child," and general tone in "A Private Little War," and he does not seem to be the biggest fan of Klingons, or even tries to imagine part of the race may not be like the military end he faced.

With David's murder, his undercurrent of hostility evolves into its full-on, racist form. His behavior in TFF was more about putting up with them until he could separate from them.
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Old March 31 2013, 12:43 AM   #40
EliyahuQeoni
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
some handwave explaination of Kirk's sudden racism (like, say, Peter's ship is ambushed and he's killed leaving Kirk with no family at all) etc.
He had enough reason with his own son murdered at the hands of Klingons. Bigger loss than Peter biting the dust.

You see his reaction in TSFS, referring to them as "Klingon bastards," instead of "bastards," which implies (strongly) using their species name as a pejorative (the way a white racist would say "n***** bastard" instead of the latter, which would have been enough for one without racist intent).
Exactly. I think a better analogy is calling someone a "Jew Bastard" instead of just a "bastard," since 'Jew' by itself isn't a pejorative, but context can make it such. 'Klingon' by itself is the correct term to use for their species, just as 'Jew' is the correct term for someone whose religion is Judaism, but "Klingon Bastard" sounds just as racist as "Jew Bastard" does, imo.
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Old March 31 2013, 01:05 AM   #41
James Pike
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Star Trek VI treats the characters horribly.

-Kirk is suddenly turned into a racist Klingon-hater, totally at odds with the guy seen in TOS and as recently as STV. It's out of character. Remember hpw he treated Kruge and Maltz, so shortly after David's death? He offered his hand to the guy who ordered his son's death. He drank with Klingons in STV.

Kirk can still be mad at Klingons. He specifically states that he can never forgive them for the death of his son.

-Spock graphically mind rapes Valaris in the middle of the bridge, and everyone just watches. Nobody tries to stop him. I pretty much pretend this scene never happened, since the way they played it, Spock might as well have bent her over the helm and everyone else is an asshole for just sitting there and allowing it to happen. Out of character for Spock and everyone else.

I think this was a more the end justified the means situation.

-McCoy doesn't know Klingon anatomy. Klingons have been the Federation's #1 enemy for a century, yet the Enterprise doctor knows nothing? No way.

Why would he know it? He might have files on them, but he needs to know humans,vulcans and other species that serve on the ship. No need for him to know an enemy.

-Uhura doesn't speak Klingon? The communications officer of the Enterprise doesn't know the language of the Federation's #1 rival for the past century? Despite several dealings with them beforehand?
They've had dealings with them, but she's not going to fluent in Klingon.

-Spock(again) talks with Jim about them both being old and useless. Spock is half-Vulcan, and wasn't close to middle-age at the time.

Spock may have felt old since he had served in star fleet for as long as Kirk, and had seen a lot of action. Perhaps he wanted a change in life?


And FWIW, this film ignores "Yesterday's Enterprise", which had previously established that the event leading to peace with the Klingons was the heroic sacrifice of the Enterprise-C 20 years prior to The Next Generation. It prevented a war which the Federation would have lost. Compare with the Praxis explosion crippling the Empire, which had no choice but to sue for peace.

It's possible that after khitomer, something happened to reignite hostilities.


Instead of writing a story to fit the characters, they changed the characters to suit their story. A lot of Trek has done that over the years, but never so blatantly as in STVI.
I replied within your quote.
But mainly you have to understand that there is a lot of history to consider with Star Trek, and many different writers. To them their job is to create an entertaining story for a wide audience.

I really enjoyed STVI
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Old March 31 2013, 01:54 AM   #42
Sky
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
You see his reaction in TSFS, referring to them as "Klingon bastards," instead of "bastards," which implies (strongly) using their species name as a pejorative (the way a white racist would say "n***** bastard" instead of the latter, which would have been enough for one without racist intent). Add his TOS behavior in "Errand of Mercy," "Friday's Child," and general tone in "A Private Little War," and he does not seem to be the biggest fan of Klingons, or even tries to imagine part of the race may not be like the military end he faced.

With David's murder, his undercurrent of hostility evolves into its full-on, racist form. His behavior in TFF was more about putting up with them until he could separate from them.
You and EliyahuQeoni have excellent points. I never understood why it would be inconceivable for Kirk to be prejudiced towards Klingons. He's not a perfect man, by any means. He's fought them his whole life and lost his own son to them. Of course it'd be great if he could see outside his own experience a bit sooner and lose his prejudice, but he's flawed, he's human. And I've always found humans more interesting than paragons.

(I also find Vulcans more interesting than paragons and thus would really have liked Saavik's story arch to end in TUC with her being the traitor. That would have had emotional impact.)
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Old April 1 2013, 02:57 AM   #43
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Sky wrote: View Post
[
(I also find Vulcans more interesting than paragons and thus would really have liked Saavik's story arch to end in TUC with her being the traitor. That would have had emotional impact.)
It would have, but I prefer the way they did it, because I *liked* Robin's Saavik. Call me simplistic.
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Old April 1 2013, 07:35 PM   #44
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Captain Nebula wrote: View Post
"Jim, I don't even know his anatomy."

Is that odd to anyone else?
How many times did Dr McCoy act like he didn't know Spock's anatomy? I know he always managed to get him through, but compare that line to his about Sarek in Journey to Babel.
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Old April 3 2013, 02:37 PM   #45
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

"Jim, I don't even know his anatomy."

Is that odd to anyone else?



Not really, he was put on the spot and was shaky and scared. He probably didn't have experience operating on a Klingon and realised that Gorkon was beyond help. I expect that the guy knew the anatomy of numerous Federation species, but lacked a full grasp of Klingon anatomy.

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