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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 27 2013, 11:51 PM   #16
CorporalClegg
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Star Trek VI treats the characters horribly.

-Kirk is suddenly turned into a racist Klingon-hater, totally at odds with the guy seen in TOS and as recently as STV. It's out of character. Remember hpw he treated Kruge and Maltz, so shortly after David's death? He offered his hand to the guy who ordered his son's death. He drank with Klingons in STV.

-Spock graphically mind rapes Valaris in the middle of the bridge, and everyone just watches. Nobody tries to stop him. I pretty much pretend this scene never happened, since the way they played it, Spock might as well have bent her over the helm and everyone else is an asshole for just sitting there and allowing it to happen. Out of character for Spock and everyone else.

-McCoy doesn't know Klingon anatomy. Klingons have been the Federation's #1 enemy for a century, yet the Enterprise doctor knows nothing? No way.

-Uhura doesn't speak Klingon? The communications officer of the Enterprise doesn't know the language of the Federation's #1 rival for the past century? Despite several dealings with them beforehand?

-Spock(again) talks with Jim about them both being old and useless. Spock is half-Vulcan, and wasn't close to middle-age at the time.

And FWIW, this film ignores "Yesterday's Enterprise", which had previously established that the event leading to peace with the Klingons was the heroic sacrifice of the Enterprise-C 20 years prior to The Next Generation. It prevented a war which the Federation would have lost. Compare with the Praxis explosion crippling the Empire, which had no choice but to sue for peace.


Instead of writing a story to fit the characters, they changed the characters to suit their story. A lot of Trek has done that over the years, but never so blatantly as in STVI.
TUC is crap? Who knew?
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Old March 28 2013, 12:53 AM   #17
Joby
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

[QUOTE=DaleC76;7858873]
Timo wrote: View Post
What possible difference is there between this scene and the one where Spock brutally forces a hapless male guard to open a door the man doesn't want opened, in "A Taste of Armageddon"? Why didn't the other captives rush Spock and beat him on the head with a stool until he bled enough to realize how monstrous it was to violate people that way?
...or forcing his Katra into an unsuspecting McCoy, almost costing the good doctor his sanity and/or life.

I've never liked the "mind rape" label for that scene, since it seems to be used solely because Valeris is female. I do believe that there is a bit of sexism in this view, as many are uncomfortable seeing a woman bullied by the powerful Spock. If that was Admiral Cartwright, or one of the other male conspirators, it would be seen in a much different light.
It didn't help that Kim Cattrall/Valeris let out those loud moans/squeals while Spock did his mind meld. The sexual undertones were hard to miss and the intent of the scene is clear and "rape" is all but beaten onto the audience.

Never before in Trek history did someone react that way to a Vulcan mind meld, so agaiin it was hard not to miss Nicholas Meyer/Leonard Nimoy's rape allegory.
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Old March 28 2013, 01:30 AM   #18
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Joby wrote: View Post
Never before in Trek history did someone react that way to a Vulcan mind meld, so agaiin it was hard not to miss Nicholas Meyer/Leonard Nimoy's rape allegory.
Unless you're with Writers Guild West and/or have seen all versions of the scripts, I don't think you can necessarily accuse only two specific writers. The writing credits were determined by the Guild through arbitration; Meyer shared screenwriting credit with Denny Martin Flinn, and Nimoy shared story credit with Lawrence Konner and Mark Rosenthal.
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Old March 28 2013, 02:58 AM   #19
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
-Spock graphically mind rapes Valaris in the middle of the bridge, and everyone just watches.
I thought that was a very powerful scene, from one of the absolute best Star Trek films.

In the commentary track of Larry Nemecek and Ira Steven Behr I have with my DVD pack of all six original films, It was Behr I think that mentioned that the way Leonard Nimoy used his hands on Kim Cattrall's face really pulled off the invasive aspect of it.

Reminds me of Spinal Tap, "You should have seen the cover they wanted to do. It wasn't a glove, believe me!"

Lance wrote: View Post
Agreed. Everybody is out of character in TUC.
I'd say they're more out of character in The Voyage Home. Scotty is mentally ill and Kirk is some type of gameshow host.

I love the TOS movies (All of 'em!) but the crew are out of character a lot of the time. Only II and III really get their personalities dead on.
Three is a really underrated film, in my opinion of course. I have no problem with The Final Frontier either mainly because of the humor. However The Search for Spock" had more genuine humor without having to resort to Scotty banging his head on a pipe. "How many fingers am I holding up?" is one of my favorite lines in any of the moviesl
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Old March 28 2013, 05:09 AM   #20
Joby
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Melakon wrote: View Post
Joby wrote: View Post
Never before in Trek history did someone react that way to a Vulcan mind meld, so agaiin it was hard not to miss Nicholas Meyer/Leonard Nimoy's rape allegory.
Unless you're with Writers Guild West and/or have seen all versions of the scripts, I don't think you can necessarily accuse only two specific writers. The writing credits were determined by the Guild through arbitration; Meyer shared screenwriting credit with Denny Martin Flinn, and Nimoy shared story credit with Lawrence Konner and Mark Rosenthal.
Meyer was the director and Nimoy played the character, a character he knew better then anyone and he did contribute to the story. Those two guys could have altered that scene if they wanted to, no matter who wrote it. What's your point other then taking a useless shot at me?
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Old March 28 2013, 08:20 AM   #21
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

I remember hearing the "mind rape" descriptions of that scene when the movie was released. If the audience interprets a scene a certain way it's not the audience's fault it's the filmmaker's.
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Old March 28 2013, 08:57 AM   #22
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Pondslider wrote: View Post
I remember hearing the "mind rape" descriptions of that scene when the movie was released. If the audience interprets a scene a certain way it's not the audience's fault it's the filmmaker's.
I have no real opinion on this particular scene. But the general idea that filmmaker's are at fault for audiences' interpretations is total bullshit!

All the time viewers are drawings outlandish conclusions from films that have nothing to do with the intentions of the people who made them.
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Old March 28 2013, 11:31 AM   #23
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Instead of writing a story to fit the characters, they changed the characters to suit their story.
I'm okay with this. The story should always take precedent even at the expense of some character acting differently to how they did 30 years ago.

However, if the story isn't strong enough such an approach would fall flat on its face, so it's a fine balance.
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Old March 28 2013, 03:00 PM   #24
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Star Trek VI treats the characters horribly.

-Kirk is suddenly turned into a racist Klingon-hater, totally at odds with the guy seen in TOS and as recently as STV. It's out of character. Remember hpw he treated Kruge and Maltz, so shortly after David's death? He offered his hand to the guy who ordered his son's death. He drank with Klingons in STV.
I would chalk this up to the difference between achieving temporary cease fires like in STV and the proposed lasting peace which would include mothballing a significant portion of Starfleet and dismantling the Neutral Zone outposts. Kirk did not believe the Klingons to be trustworthy and felt that this was an attempt to weaken Starfleet's defenses before launching a major attack to grab resources they needed to survive, which is precisely what some of Azetbur's top generals were suggesting she should do. He was fine with ending a shooting war and remaining in a Cold War setting, but going beyond that troubled him.

Similar complaints come up about Picard's backslide from I, Borg and Descent to First Contact, where he returned to an immediate post-BoBW type attitude about the Borg, but like the lasting peace with the Klingons in TUC, the First Contact incursion was a massive escalation in scope from the incidents that came before it, and something Picard hadn't faced since BoBW, so his sudden turn to vengeance is understandable. Likewise, Kirk is seeing Starfleet potentially being left defenseless in an unprecedented peace with an untrustworthy foe, so his earlier willingness to accept some small measure of detente goes out the window when he thinks about other families losing their children to a Klingon attack.

Plus, things don't happen in a vacuum. What if sometime between STIII and STVI Carol Marcus had cut off all ties with Kirk because she blamed him for the death of her son, or maybe the shock of his death adversely affected her mental and/or physical health in some way and Kirk recently found out about it? Or it could be something as simple as the anniversary of David's death or his birthday filling Kirk with regret about missing out on spending time with him. Any number of things could have made him adopt a more bitter attitude toward the Klingons as time went on.

Plus, while his "let them die" line is harsh, I don't think they were literally saying the Klingons as a species were going to die out (such a massive empire on so many worlds would make that incredibly improbable), just that the Klingon homeworld would have to be evacuated and the Empire as an entity might diminish somewhat with the destruction of their key energy facility and the loss of their capital.

-Spock graphically mind rapes Valaris in the middle of the bridge, and everyone just watches. Nobody tries to stop him. I pretty much pretend this scene never happened, since the way they played it, Spock might as well have bent her over the helm and everyone else is an asshole for just sitting there and allowing it to happen. Out of character for Spock and everyone else.
In the real world it's not uncommon for groups of people to not take action when faced with a person being harmed until someone takes the initiative to step up first, and then others generally follow.

Plus, there's hesitation because she's a traitor and Spock is a trusted friend, because they are still ignorant of the intricacies of Vulcan mind melds (Is she being physically hurt? Would pulling Spock off of her damage their minds?), because they were shocked and frozen by what was happening, and because they felt the safety of the Federation and the innocence of Kirk and McCoy were at stake.

I'll agree that the worst thing in the film character-wise is Spock and the forced mind meld, but as mentioned, he also put McCoy's mental well-being in danger with his katra before without his permission, so who knows? Maybe Vulcans consider forced mind melds permissible under extreme circumstances where the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

-McCoy doesn't know Klingon anatomy. Klingons have been the Federation's #1 enemy for a century, yet the Enterprise doctor knows nothing? No way.
You know McCoy, he always speaks in hyperbole. He probably knew the basics of Klingon anatomy, but that's a far cry from the level of detail required to be able to perform trauma surgery on one of them, especially when screwing up would possibly cost you your life or freedom, as eventually happened.

The Klingons don't place a high priority on medical care themselves (as seen in DS9), and are incredibly paranoid and secretive, so the combination of their own de-prioritization of medical concerns, lack of sharing of medical data with other species, and so forth could have contributed to his lack of knowledge. Plus, with all the kamikaze-like behavior of the Klingons and ritual sacrifice/suicide of the wounded, I bet their enemies don't get a lot of chances to operate on wounded Klingon POWs.

-Uhura doesn't speak Klingon? The communications officer of the Enterprise doesn't know the language of the Federation's #1 rival for the past century? Despite several dealings with them beforehand?
My memory is hazy. Was Uhura ever shown to be some sort of amazing linguist in TOS? Because my recollection is that that was more of an invention of Enterprise with Hoshi and nuTrek's Uhura, in order to give the communications officer a more active role in events than just making hails and repeating commands and incoming messages like Sigourney Weaver parodied in Galaxy Quest. I could be wrong on that though.

Regardless, unless Uhura was specifically shown to be fluent in Klingonese beforehand, it can't really be called "out of character."

Even if she is a proficient linguist, she could be fluent in other enemy languages like Romulan, or languages of friendly non-Federation species around the border who you might have to negotiate with for supplies.

Or, since they couldn't use the universal translator, the Klingons at Morska might have been speaking a dialect of Klingonese that she was unfamiliar with. Didn't they have several translation books with them? Maybe they covered different regional dialects.

-Spock(again) talks with Jim about them both being old and useless. Spock is half-Vulcan, and wasn't close to middle-age at the time.
Well, he was trying to empathize with and relate to Kirk on an equal footing, so pointing out that he was actually in the prime of his life as a Vulcan wouldn't really be helpful. Besides, technically Jim was just in middle age himself if humans are living upwards of 120+ years.

Beside which, even though physically Spock was still in his prime, he still has experienced the passage of time the same as Jim has. You can feel old mentally without feeling old physically, especially when confronted with something that makes you feel out of touch. Just ask someone who's in good shape but on the verge of their thirtieth, fortieth, or fiftieth birthdays (says the guy who's nine months away from turning 40).

And FWIW, this film ignores "Yesterday's Enterprise", which had previously established that the event leading to peace with the Klingons was the heroic sacrifice of the Enterprise-C 20 years prior to The Next Generation. It prevented a war which the Federation would have lost. Compare with the Praxis explosion crippling the Empire, which had no choice but to sue for peace.
We're going on a quarter of a century since the end of the Cold War, and I wouldn't exactly call us BFFs with the Russians. Peace is not always an overnight process. Once the Klingon Empire was saved from immediate peril, maybe they fell back on their more adversarial ways again.

Besides, we saw in The Way of the Warrior that it doesn't exactly take much to get them to throw away their treaty with the Federation and go to war with them. What's to say other incidents like that didn't occur in the decades between the Khitomer Accords and the Enterprise-C coming to the rescue at Narendra III, and that the peace between the Federation and Klingons was tenuous and occasionally fractured during that time?

Also, didn't Yesterday's Enterprise air only about a year or so before TUC came out? Maybe the plot had already been finalized by that point and the Cold War analogy settled on, and they didn't want to radically change the entire film when the conflict with the show was a relatively minor one.

Instead of writing a story to fit the characters, they changed the characters to suit their story. A lot of Trek has done that over the years, but never so blatantly as in STVI.
Eh, none of those seemed like anything that can't be fairly easily explained and still be in character, and I find them forgivable because they made a dramatic and enjoyable film, IMO. Obviously if one doesn't like STVI they aren't going to feel the same way, and that's fair, but I just didn't find any of the character behaviors in the film so beyond the pale that it makes me hate the movie or anything. To each their own, though.
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Old March 29 2013, 04:08 PM   #25
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Donald Draper wrote: View Post
Pondslider wrote: View Post
I remember hearing the "mind rape" descriptions of that scene when the movie was released. If the audience interprets a scene a certain way it's not the audience's fault it's the filmmaker's.
I have no real opinion on this particular scene. But the general idea that filmmaker's are at fault for audiences' interpretations is total bullshit!

All the time viewers are drawings outlandish conclusions from films that have nothing to do with the intentions of the people who made them.
It's not bullshit. If the filmmakers create a scene with one intention in mind and the audience interprets it in another way then the filmmakers failed to get their message across somehow.
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Old March 29 2013, 04:28 PM   #26
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

May I ask why it must be the fault of one party -or- the other? Because in my experience misunderstandings are often the fault of all involved parties.
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Old March 29 2013, 05:22 PM   #27
F. King Daniel
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Locutus of Bored wrote:
My memory is hazy. Was Uhura ever shown to be some sort of amazing linguist in TOS? Because my recollection is that that was more of an invention of Enterprise with Hoshi and nuTrek's Uhura, in order to give the communications officer a more active role in events than just making hails and repeating commands and incoming messages like Sigourney Weaver parodied in Galaxy Quest. I could be wrong on that though.
It's apparently something added to the character by Roddenberry and Nichols for the aborted Phase II television series. I grew up reading Trek novels, which as far back as the 70's often included these linguistic abilities (which Nichols had spoken about at conventions and in interviews), and so I had always assumed it was part of her job from the outset. It wasn't until I joined Trek BBS that I learned otherwise. The closest she comes to translating anything in TOS is decoding a Romulan transmission.
So, I guess since this added-on talent was never shown canonically (until the reboot), her not knowing Klingon is valid.


I don't actually dislike STVI. I think its an okay movie, and when watching it I take it on it's own terms rather than trying to fit it perfectly with the rest of the Trekverse. But I do think a little bit of rewriting could have helped a lot without changing the film itself much - the Klingons talking in an obscure dialect Uhura doesn't know, or asking for authorization codes, McCoy encountering some complication he couldn't help without his sickbay (and the Klingons of course refuse to let them take Gorkon), the mind meld de-sexualized, some handwave explaination of Kirk's sudden racism (like, say, Peter's ship is ambushed and he's killed leaving Kirk with no family at all) etc.
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Old March 29 2013, 07:06 PM   #28
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Was Uhura ever shown to be some sort of amazing linguist in TOS?
No, she wasn't. There are scenes in TOS that require one of our heroes to display amazing linguistic ability, but that hero is always Spock, even when Uhura is in the same scene.
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Old March 29 2013, 07:59 PM   #29
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

The "mind interrogation" goes back to TOS. Kryton from "Elaan of Troyius" kills himself before he would let Spock do a mind meld with him so I would imagine an uncooperative subject would suffer as Valeris did in TUC.
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Old March 29 2013, 08:14 PM   #30
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Re: ST VI:TUC Out of character for McCoy?

Mirror Spock did it to McCoy and McCoy didn't seem particularly traumatized.
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