RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,892
Posts: 5,222,825
Members: 24,234
Currently online: 587
Newest member: evtclub

TrekToday headlines

De Lancie Joins Mind Puppets
By: T'Bonz on Apr 24

Cumberbatch One Of Time Magazine’s Most Influential
By: T'Bonz on Apr 24

Trek Actor Smithsonian Magazine Cover First
By: T'Bonz on Apr 24

Takei To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Yelchin In New Comedy
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

U.S. Rights For Pegg Comedy Secured
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Shatner: Aging and Work
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Kurtzman And Orci Go Solo
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Star Trek #32 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Voyager Bridge Via The Oculus Rift
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 25 2013, 10:25 AM   #31
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

Yup - and the moment their project succeeded, one or more of the resulting sapient humanoids would launch their own corresponding programs, some in order to support or outdo their benefactors, others in order to ruin their plans. There would have been time for at least ten thousand generations of new species to have emerged and given rise to further species - the same way generations within species give rise to new generations, only about ten thousand times more slowly.

Certainly we have no reason to think that the galaxy would have been devoid of sapient humanoid cultures between the passing of the first seeders 4 billion years ago and the emetgence of the first sapient humanoids known to us (AFAIK, that'd be the Slavers of TAS, one billion years ago).

Timo Saloniemi.
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2013, 02:05 AM   #32
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
its never mentioned again... but any idea how the message at the end of the episode affects the academic and scientific community in the federation and elsewhere?
The only sequel I know of to this directly was in a video game.

I wrote a synopsis for a sequel which is my only fanfic type story ever. I'm not really a big fanfic reader so I don't expect people to want to read mine. Though I think it would have made the best ST movie ever.

Obviously The Chase is important on many levels. In-universe it explains the human centrism we see on screen. In reality it gives us a conceit for the limited makeup budget. In-universe it gives us an underlying epic scale, touches upon a race like the Preservers from TOS, and expands ST into a timeline much like any good world building universe like Larry Niven's Known Space, Brin's Uplift, Iain M. Banks Culture, etc.

Like another long-time scifi example in season 5, the Dyson Sphere, the discovery in biology would probably have a huge amount of resources thrown at it, and would probably pick up the threads more quickly than just one man could have done.

Culturally, there may be some in the "enlightened" 24th century, even allies that would not like the implications. Eventually I think finding out we are all more related than we thought would bring a certain sense of appreciation to all the affected races.

We already saw that the Yridians and several enemies of the UFP were ready to fight over the information, it might be possible that any other "secrets" discovered would also.

For Star Trek as a TV show, The Chase is clearly the signature piece of the franchise as a whole, it brings almost all the major players of the time and ties them together with a brisk "chase" plot (combining the Sagan "Contact" element of finding universal clues in a long calculation for Pi and a Mad, Mad..World)...so it has good character moments for Picard, action, philosophy, a healthy dose of humor, and a perfect Trek ending..the Romulan captain calling Picard which suggests a light at the end of the tunnel of conflict with each other.

Directed panspermia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_panspermia

Seeder ships:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seedshi...eeder.22_ships

RAMA
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2013, 03:42 AM   #33
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

I have nothing but respect for people who believe in a higher power, so I'm not going to attack anyone or call them stupid, because I do not believe they are.

However, the contention that evolution is based on assumptions and not supported by evidence is purely untrue. The fact that evolution is an ongoing process of change is not scientifically up for dispute, otherwise you should have faith that you will never need another flu vaccine. Species continually adapt to be able to survive better, that is thoroughly proven. The extension that life arose by chance through that same process? I suppose to obtain 'Hard evidence' of that you would need to first find a planet that was exactly like early Earth then wait a few billion years and see if intelligent life evolved. But there is scientific proof that the conditions of early Earth lead to basic amino acids and phospholipids forming by themselves. There is ample solid scientific reasoning that life could arise by itself and that simple life forms could evolve into complex life forms. That is not assumption or being guided by one's emotions, that is inductive reasoning from observation.

I do not believe in a higher power, but I suppose if a higher power did exist, it would logically follow that it is capable of intelligently designing mankind. And yes, I can not explain why I experience consciousness if that consciousness is only the result of chemical reactions.

Anyway, I say teach evolution in school and creationism in Sunday School. And in general, just don't be a dick to people who disagree with you.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26 2013, 03:33 PM   #34
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

touches upon a race like the Preservers from TOS
This one I have never understood. The Preservers maintained status quo by abducting a small cultural subgroup of an existing species a few hundred years ago. "The Chase" dealt with folks who changed everything by introducing millions of all-new species in a grand scheme spanning aeons, four billion years ago!

IMHO, seeing the Preservers as tying into "The Chase" is akin to seeing "The Savage Curtain" as dealing with the extinction of whales...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 27 2013, 01:50 AM   #35
Marsden
Lieutenant Commander
 
Marsden's Avatar
 
Location: USS Excalibur What could go wrong?
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

I'm with the Klingon, it was a total let down of a revelation. The Romulan was just saying that so he could find a weakness in the Federation's defences someday under the pretence of "we arent so different"

I thought they were trying to tie into the Preservers, but Timo has a point, they would never have met, unless the Preservers are a specially created sub group of that race that stayed around as needed.


Off topic

Thank you JirinPanthosa for your post, I appreciate it.

No thank you for the insulting post from the other poster, intolerance is not pretty.
Marsden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 27 2013, 03:49 AM   #36
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The fact that evolution is an ongoing process of change is not scientifically up for dispute, otherwise you should have faith that you will never need another flu vaccine. Species continually adapt to be able to survive better, that is thoroughly proven.
You would seem to be confusing (or possible combining) evolution and adaptation. Adaptation can be accomplish solely through natural selection. Evolution can include things like genetic drift, mutation and intentional manipulation (breeding/genetic engineering).

The Chase seems to be saying that there is also (in the Trek Universe) long term "eventual results" instructions that can be encoded into DNA.

Anyway, I say teach evolution in school and creationism in Sunday School.
Problem with that is, while "school" is mandatory, "Sunday school" isn't. Not all children in our society attend Sunday school. For them to receive information on both evolution and creationism, in order that later they would be able to make their own informed choices and decisions, both would have to be taught to them in the only instructional environment where attendance is mandatory.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 27 2013, 05:00 AM   #37
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

Timo wrote: View Post
touches upon a race like the Preservers from TOS
This one I have never understood. The Preservers maintained status quo by abducting a small cultural subgroup of an existing species a few hundred years ago. "The Chase" dealt with folks who changed everything by introducing millions of all-new species in a grand scheme spanning aeons, four billion years ago!

IMHO, seeing the Preservers as tying into "The Chase" is akin to seeing "The Savage Curtain" as dealing with the extinction of whales...

Timo Saloniemi
Well the facts are this direct mention was considered by Moore. It was my first thought when seeing the episode. I have no problem believing in a multi tier plan to seed or protect races, similar plots exist in 2001 and Contact, and also have no problem believing a civilization could exist for a 5 or 6 billion years in a stretch. The idea they may "pass on" not only exists in literature but also Star Trek itself.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 27 2013, 10:52 AM   #38
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

It really smacks of "small universe", not to mention a major downgrade for the seeders. Their four-billion-year plan for the entire galaxy was a stunning success; their transplantation of a handful of native Americans was a dismal failure that would have led to total extinction had Kirk not intervened...

At best, I could buy the Preservers believing they are the continuation of some ancient great plan, much like Freemasons would like to believe in a society history going back to the days of the pyramid builders...

Problem with that is, while "school" is mandatory, "Sunday school" isn't. Not all children in our society attend Sunday school. For them to receive information on both evolution and creationism, in order that later they would be able to make their own informed choices and decisions, both would have to be taught to them in the only instructional environment where attendance is mandatory.
That would solve nothing, though, as it would still completely ignore such worldviews as Pastafarianism or the concept of Earth being a flat plate atop elephants atop a turtle. At some point, you either have to cut off the crap altogether, or then condense it into a footnote saying "visit your local library, Dewey code 213, for associated bullshit".

The art of making informed choices is something that needs to be taught separately; it can then cover subjects such as creationism. OTOH, there are worthwhile things to be taught about evolution, whereas there's nothing teachable about creationism beyond the existence of the term.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 27 2013, 11:06 AM   #39
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

The alternative of course is that the Preservers themselves, or remaining Preservers were in a state of degradation themselves...and they died out instead of passing on. Providing an asteroid deflector was the most they could manage.

Edit: Also any Preservers who chose to stay "past their prime" to help or influence younger races with asteroid deflectors also has a precedent in lit, two examples that come to mind are The Culture series and with the Greg Bear Halo novels.
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan

Last edited by RAMA; March 28 2013 at 03:26 AM.
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 27 2013, 01:41 PM   #40
yousirname
Commander
 
yousirname's Avatar
 
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

Never liked this episode. Seems to undermine the idea of 'truly' alien species coming to understanding. Once their ultimate roots are identical, so what?

Doesn't have any particular implications for evolution, though, not sure why people are saying that.
yousirname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 27 2013, 01:51 PM   #41
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

The implication seems pretty obvious to me: according to the episode, as well as mainstream creationism, the human species is a desired end product of a project. This is the exact opposite of a natural process of evolution, where the human species is neither an end product nor a desired goal, but merely something that happens to meet the requirements of the day and survive until better things come along.

And "better" may well mean rats or mollusks or bacteria or other innovative solutions, whereas in the creationist or "The Chase" context a very narrow set of parameters is paramount and Man is superior to everything else.

In the episode, creationism triumphs over evolution - a perfectly plausible situation in a universe where humanoid intellect precedes us, as its desire to perpetuate itself is something we very well understand. IMHO, it's a gentle message: "Yes, that thing there is possible, too. In the special circumstances of fiction. And perhaps life is indeed fiction, rather than the more interesting thing we currently mistake it for?"

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 27 2013, 03:32 PM   #42
yousirname
Commander
 
yousirname's Avatar
 
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

Timo wrote: View Post
The implication seems pretty obvious to me: according to the episode, as well as mainstream creationism, the human species is a desired end product of a project. This is the exact opposite of a natural process of evolution, where the human species is neither an end product nor a desired goal, but merely something that happens to meet the requirements of the day and survive until better things come along.
Yeah, I get that, but what I'm saying is, where did the Precursor chaps come from? We can't really posit an infinite regress of founding races. So presumably the Precursors were the products of evolution. That artificial cell created by Craig Venter isn't the product of evolution, but its existence doesn't conflict with evolution. So in this case, 'Venter' = the Precursors and 'Humans, etc' = the artificial cell.
yousirname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 27 2013, 04:08 PM   #43
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

yousirname wrote: View Post
Never liked this episode. Seems to undermine the idea of 'truly' alien species coming to understanding. Once their ultimate roots are identical, so what?

Doesn't have any particular implications for evolution, though, not sure why people are saying that.
Well, there are still many "truly alien" species out there, since only the humanoid form was the result of the seeding program, not intelligence in general. And it's possible, even likely, that some humanoid aliens in Trek are the result of convergent evolution rather than the seeding program.

In the end, it's just Trek's attempt to hand wave all the human rubber-forehead aliens, nothing more.
Pavonis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 27 2013, 04:41 PM   #44
RAMA
Vice Admiral
 
RAMA's Avatar
 
Location: NJ, USA
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

There are still enough solar systems, enough aliens for lots of diversity out there, it tdoesn't take away from that in Star Trek's universe.

As for not seeing anything new or different in the episdoe in terms of implications, that's just silly, for most races on Earth, origins are pretty important. Sharing something means more to us that not, that may be unfortunate but the end result is it changes our POV.

In terms of evolution, once the DNA seeding is set into motion, the natural evolution, also mutation, etc takes place, resulting in some differences, plus exposure to environment also changed cultures.

RAMA
__________________
It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Carl Sagan
RAMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 27 2013, 09:38 PM   #45
Mojochi
Fleet Captain
 
Mojochi's Avatar
 
Re: "the chase" Reprucussions

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Problem with that is, while "school" is mandatory, "Sunday school" isn't. Not all children in our society attend Sunday school. For them to receive information on both evolution and creationism, in order that later they would be able to make their own informed choices and decisions, both would have to be taught to them in the only instructional environment where attendance is mandatory.

Creationism is not based in scientific practice. In fact, it contradicts several other sciences, geology & astrophysics among them. It's not for public institutions to limit science curricula teaching, in order to include what is essentially belief based concepts, solely because some people don't like what actual scientific practice has deduced, across several completely different scientific branches, not just evolution
Mojochi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:22 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.