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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old December 24 2013, 05:41 AM   #1
Komack
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Time's Arrow

I appreciate the fact that episodes involving time travel are riddled with inconsistencies and errors, but here is my question - couldn't you make the argument that after Picard used a small piece of metal to enter a simple code into Data's head, that Picard then had to wait 500 years for the message to be decoded - thus, in one time stream, Picard spent the rest of his life with Guinan in the 19th century?
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Old December 24 2013, 05:49 AM   #2
jimbotron
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Re: Time's Arrow

With time travel stories like this, I don't think there are "lost" timelines. Everything that happened always happened, so as soon as Picard tinkered with Data's head, his return trip was already decided.

The difference is with episodes like Yesterday's Enterprise, which is what you describe. That was a "lost" timeline that ceased to exist because of a change.

That would have been pretty neat if Guinan remembers a long life with Picard, but the "restored" timeline says otherwise (like with YE/Redemption).
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Old December 30 2013, 07:25 PM   #3
desfem79
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Re: Time's Arrow

What gets me is that a black woman (albeit not human) has a stately reception/audience at a time when Jim Crow as at its height lol. Granted, California was a Union state and didn't have Jim Crow anyhow, but then still perhaps it was Clemens' ultra-progressive views (compared to his era anyhow) that made him her friend lol..
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Old December 30 2013, 07:36 PM   #4
USS Triumphant
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Re: Time's Arrow

desfem79 wrote: View Post
What gets me is that a black woman (albeit not human) has a stately reception/audience at a time when Jim Crow as at its height lol. Granted, California was a Union state and didn't have Jim Crow anyhow, but then still perhaps it was Clemens' ultra-progressive views (compared to his era anyhow) that made him her friend lol..
Things like this have NEVER been as clear cut as the simplified version of history we are presented with in school (even college, generally) makes them out to be. Plenty of exceptions we aren't taught that make the rules that we learn.
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Old December 30 2013, 07:42 PM   #5
desfem79
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Re: Time's Arrow

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post
What gets me is that a black woman (albeit not human) has a stately reception/audience at a time when Jim Crow as at its height lol. Granted, California was a Union state and didn't have Jim Crow anyhow, but then still perhaps it was Clemens' ultra-progressive views (compared to his era anyhow) that made him her friend lol..
Things like this have NEVER been as clear cut as the simplified version of history we are presented with in school (even college, generally) makes them out to be. Plenty of exceptions we aren't taught that make the rules that we learn.
I know that. but then even in the slavery era, some blacks had prominence right? doesn't mean the many were not like that.
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Old December 30 2013, 07:46 PM   #6
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Re: Time's Arrow

desfem79 wrote: View Post
I know that. but then even in the slavery era, some blacks had prominence right? doesn't mean the many were not like that.
You mockin' mah use of emoticons, son?

I'MA CALLIN' YOU OUT!

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Old December 30 2013, 07:49 PM   #7
desfem79
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Re: Time's Arrow

no, just agreeing with you and adding my own point.
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Old December 30 2013, 08:06 PM   #8
USS Triumphant
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Re: Time's Arrow

desfem79 wrote: View Post
no, just agreeing with you and adding my own point.
Oh. Well, that's okay then.
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Old January 1 2014, 12:56 AM   #9
Keith1701
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Re: Time's Arrow

Time Arrow's has always been a great episode.
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Old January 1 2014, 09:48 PM   #10
Mojochi
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Re: Time's Arrow

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post
What gets me is that a black woman (albeit not human) has a stately reception/audience at a time when Jim Crow as at its height lol. Granted, California was a Union state and didn't have Jim Crow anyhow, but then still perhaps it was Clemens' ultra-progressive views (compared to his era anyhow) that made him her friend lol..
Things like this have NEVER been as clear cut as the simplified version of history we are presented with in school (even college, generally) makes them out to be. Plenty of exceptions we aren't taught that make the rules that we learn.
I think the issue is not necessarily that it's implausible for her to be a prominent socialite, it's that being so would be rather rare, & would almost certainly make her highly renowned for the time period, like Fredrick Douglas for example, and that being so renowned would be unbelievably hazardous for an alien who's supposed to be covertly observing Human kind

It's not entirely unbelievable, but it would suggest Guinan has enormous balls & is a little crazy or reckless to be coming out so publically
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Old January 1 2014, 09:53 PM   #11
USS Triumphant
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Re: Time's Arrow

Mojochi wrote: View Post
It's not entirely unbelievable, but it would suggest Guinan has enormous balls & is a little crazy or reckless to be coming out so publically
She IS a few centuries younger, and she has made reference to her misspent youth in the past, so who can say? Remember that when Picard shows up, she thinks he has been sent by her father because she is in trouble.
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Old January 2 2014, 12:36 AM   #12
YellowSubmarine
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Re: Time's Arrow

Apart from everything else, she is also an alien, she has alien technology on her side, she could have manipulated things around her to ensure her safety and good time, perhaps even do a trick or two to humiliate some of the racists she encountered, which might have impressed Clemens. Or maybe it's the other way round, and finding a decent human like Clemens was what helped her get the safety and the good time.

As an alien and knowledge, she had plenty of options, unlike some of the humans who lived there back then.

And in spite of the times the events took place, not all the while folks were racist assholes, and even many racist assholes are often willing to accept artists of any background. Could happen. It has happened. It's not the best thing to show, cause it makes you forget what the times were like, but it's also worth showing because like most times in human history, the world and the people and the culture are more diverse than you can paint it in a history book or a single story.

P.S. No, Picard didn't have to wait any time, him sending Data a message is something that had always happened, he left the message in the past, left it there, then was pulled from the past thanks to the future getting it. History was not changed.
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Old January 2 2014, 06:52 AM   #13
CrazyMatt
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Re: Time's Arrow

I've always felt that "Times Arrow" was the second best double "cliffhanger" episode after "Best Of Both Worlds." It beats "Redemption" and "Descent" hands down.
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Old January 2 2014, 06:39 PM   #14
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Time's Arrow

I too think "Time's Arrow" is one of the better TNG 2-parters.
jimbotron wrote: View Post
With time travel stories like this, I don't think there are "lost" timelines. Everything that happened always happened, so as soon as Picard tinkered with Data's head, his return trip was already decided.

The difference is with episodes like Yesterday's Enterprise, which is what you describe. That was a "lost" timeline that ceased to exist because of a change.
Ah, but was Data's head, with all it's memories up until it gets blown off at the end of season 5, under San Francisco in the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alternate timeline? I think it was, and that it "currently" sits there waiting to be found in the new movie timeline as well.
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Old January 2 2014, 06:55 PM   #15
desfem79
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Re: Time's Arrow

Mojochi wrote: View Post
USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post
What gets me is that a black woman (albeit not human) has a stately reception/audience at a time when Jim Crow as at its height lol. Granted, California was a Union state and didn't have Jim Crow anyhow, but then still perhaps it was Clemens' ultra-progressive views (compared to his era anyhow) that made him her friend lol..
Things like this have NEVER been as clear cut as the simplified version of history we are presented with in school (even college, generally) makes them out to be. Plenty of exceptions we aren't taught that make the rules that we learn.
I think the issue is not necessarily that it's implausible for her to be a prominent socialite, it's that being so would be rather rare, & would almost certainly make her highly renowned for the time period, like Fredrick Douglas for example, and that being so renowned would be unbelievably hazardous for an alien who's supposed to be covertly observing Human kind

It's not entirely unbelievable, but it would suggest Guinan has enormous balls & is a little crazy or reckless to be coming out so publically
Well look at today. we are largely anti-racist, despite some of us being so. The opposite was true then. I'd also figure that since was an early male feminist as it were, he'd be one of the least likely to harass Guinan for being black (if not a black human of course).
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