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Old May 19 2013, 07:40 PM   #451
Brown-Eyed Ghoul
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

stj wrote: View Post
Sorry to post twice but I messed up the multiquote.
You can consolidate two or more posts and delete redundant ones after they've been posted.
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Old May 19 2013, 08:26 PM   #452
Elvira
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

gturner wrote: View Post
But there are opportunities in the Federation. Tens of thousands of its citizens choose to die in miserable dilithiium mines just to better themselves ...
Harry Mudd: "Lonely, isolated, overworked, rich lithium miners!"

"Eve ... I'll get you a man who can buy you a whole planet."

stj wrote: View Post
Lastly, the real context here is exploration of space. History tells us that the capitalist and competitive US has only a limited interest in space exploration, not counting space based weaponry.
Of course in a capitalistic system, exploration is followed by utilization and exploitation of discoveries. The early space race provide America (and others) with access to Earth orbit. Satellites, weather and communications and navigation. These satellites are commercial products and generate profits for the companies/corporations that build them, launch them and operate them, and for the businesses that make use of the information and signals that the satellites produce.

One example would be that while the weather report might be a passing segment on your evening news, the images and information from weather satellites have enabled farmers to increase their agricultural output significantly.

More money, more money, more money.


Last edited by Elvira; May 19 2013 at 09:13 PM.
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Old May 19 2013, 11:18 PM   #453
Arianna
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
scotpens wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
Treatment of women. Sorry, but I don't like a sexist Starfleet, or your idea that a woman who isn't pretty can't have a future. Plus writing that one line "They're like animals" to describe a green skinned woman dancing to music is just bad.
You're looking at a story written in 1964 through the prism of 21st-century sensibilities. To audiences of the time, and I daresay even to many people today, it's quite understandable that Vina, with her crippled and deformed body, would prefer to stay on Talos IV where she could have the illusion of youth and beauty.

As for the Orion dance scene, IIRC, a line was cut before the pilot was shown to NBC -- something like "every now and then a man comes along who can tame one of them." So it could have been worse!
Plus for all we know the Talosians medical stuff was the only thing keeping her alive seeing as she said they put her back together wrong.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
And they never explained why the Talosians couldn't simply read Vina's mind (they were extremely powerful telepaths, after all. And Vina was unconscious, not dead! So she still had a mind to read) to find out what a human being looked like. OR, for that matter, they could have just scanned the Columbia's computer banks!
That assumes Vina had the necessary anatomy knowledge that they needed and/or the Columbia's computers weren't reduced to junk by the crash.
T'Girl wrote: View Post
CoveTom wrote: View Post
... and then used their power of illusion to let her see herself the way she originally was.
Spock: "SS Columbia. It disappeared in that region approximately eighteen years ago."

Haskins: "This is Vina. Her parents are dead. She was born almost as we crashed."

Susan Oliver was thirty-two years when The Cage started production. But when we first see her character, she is supposed to appear to the landing party to be eighteen (with respect, she didn't).

Number One: "There was a Vina listed on that expedition as an adult crewman."

Did the appearance of Vina, the appearance she wanted look like, look at all like the "original" Vina? In the first Matrix movie, they used the term residual self image. It's the way individuals tend to think of their own physical appearance. Especially during times when they can't actually see themselves. Vina's image of herself (assuming the Talosians let her choose it) was of a blonde, blue eyed, slim, small breasted, beautiful young woman.

But did Vina ever look like this?





I agree with Jeryl. TOS was so sexist. Simply having women in the programme was not equality and the lengths of their "skirts" was ridiculous.

I thought that Vina was trying to look as she used? Younger but slim, blonde, pretty? At least that's the impression I got looking at it. She kept the same image all throughout the show except when she was green and "like an animal".

Didn't like that she felt she had to remain on the planet just because she had been in an accident.

A. Why couldn't they fix her
B. Looks aren't supposed to matter in Star trek

Gene Roddenberry was such a chauvinist.
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Old May 19 2013, 11:29 PM   #454
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Gene Roddenberry was also pretty much a hack. Outside of TOS the rest of his filmography is garbage.
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Old May 19 2013, 11:56 PM   #455
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Arianna wrote: View Post

I agree with Jeryl. TOS was so sexist. Simply having women in the programme was not equality and the lengths of their "skirts" was ridiculous.
At a time when the only women serving aboard US Navy vessels were nurses on hospital ships, having one-third of the Enterprise's crew be female was progressive. As was the woman First Officer in the original pilot.

Arianna wrote: View Post
Didn't like that she felt she had to remain on the planet just because she had been in an accident.

A. Why couldn't they fix her
B. Looks aren't supposed to matter in Star trek

Gene Roddenberry was such a chauvinist.
Presentism, presentism, presentism.
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Old May 20 2013, 01:31 AM   #456
Nightdiamond
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Sulu: I don't want to have to kill a woman!

Janice Lester: Your world of star ship captains doesn't admit women
This is pretty sexist, but the top quote is just flat out funny.

This stuff is harmless, but this is what makes some fans criticize the claims Trek make.

So women can't command a ship in the 23rd century? Even though they are considered completely equal and share all the work?

Why not just admit women and men aren't equal at everything and most of the time don't want to be all the time anyway?

But, just to make a point, they gave us the man skirt in season 1 of TNG to show us the sexes are absolutely equal--because men wear skirts on duty.
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Old May 20 2013, 01:47 AM   #457
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

scotpens wrote: View Post
Deanna Troi having three breasts.
I think you're thinking about Gomez.

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
I thought that was brilliant. Persis was far more stunning without hair than she was with it. It wouldn't have been so with most women...
Khambatta had stunning hair, but was just insanely beautiful without it.

teacake wrote: View Post
No money.

Mankind having evolved past greed and now working only to better themselves.
It's a good idea, but more like 53rd century.

No conflict on TNG among the crew because of all this enlightened evolving.
Yeah, props to DS9 for clearing that up.
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Old May 20 2013, 02:10 AM   #458
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Belz... wrote: View Post
scotpens wrote: View Post
Deanna Troi having three breasts.
I think you're thinking about Gomez.
scottpenn is referring to the original concept for Troi.

D.C. Fontana wrote:
I objected to Troi having three breasts. I felt women have enough trouble with two. And how are you going to line them up? Vertically, horizontally, or what? I was like, please, don't go there. And they didn't, fortunately.
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Old May 20 2013, 02:28 AM   #459
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Ouch.
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Old May 20 2013, 04:08 AM   #460
Elvira
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Arianna wrote: View Post
Vina

Why couldn't they fix her
I came up with the idea a while back that Vina might have been a physical composite. They pulled her out of the wreckage a "lump of flesh," and they had never seen a Human Being before. There were other people's bodies in the wreakage, what Vina was missing in terms of organs and bone and skin, the Talosian took from where they could.

The Taloisans internal anatomy might have been considerably different than a Humans, they couldn't tell for example a man's vertebra from a woman's, or in what order they were arranged.

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Old May 20 2013, 07:09 AM   #461
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

^ also the different rib counts.
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Old May 20 2013, 07:48 AM   #462
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

1st Talosian: Have the computer fragments yielded physiological or medical data that may be of help as we restore Vina?
2nd Talosian: The remnants of their files show multiple references to something called "spare ribs".
1st Talosian: Yes, I see. But wait. These are ... these are ... culinary references.
2nd Talosian: You mean... the humans have different rib counts... because....
1st Talosian: They couldn't!
2nd Talosian: They wouldn't!
3rd Talosian, just arriving: What's wrong?
1st Talosian, whose brain is now bleeding: Wrong thinking!
Wrong thinking!
2nd Talosian, also bleeding: It's a cookbook! It's a cookbook!
3rd Talosian: I guess you two will be no help. To 4th Talosian: Proceed with the operation on Vina. We'll just have to do the best we can.
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Old May 20 2013, 06:22 PM   #463
Arianna
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
1st Talosian: Have the computer fragments yielded physiological or medical data that may be of help as we restore Vina?
2nd Talosian: The remnants of their files show multiple references to something called "spare ribs".
1st Talosian: Yes, I see. But wait. These are ... these are ... culinary references.
2nd Talosian: You mean... the humans have different rib counts... because....
1st Talosian: They couldn't!
2nd Talosian: They wouldn't!
3rd Talosian, just arriving: What's wrong?
1st Talosian, whose brain is now bleeding: Wrong thinking!
Wrong thinking!
2nd Talosian, also bleeding: It's a cookbook! It's a cookbook!
3rd Talosian: I guess you two will be no help. To 4th Talosian: Proceed with the operation on Vina. We'll just have to do the best we can.

They stuck her spare ribs up her shoulder.
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Old May 26 2013, 12:04 AM   #464
Godblessed1701
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

dead-birds worse idea be these hybrid dudes. spock maybe been good as a one of a kinder, but by tng's time we had all manner of freakin crossbreeds. and they follow dumb-dumb rules. like had i been one-quarter vulcan, one-quarter klingon, one-quarter andorian, and one-quarter tribble id a have slightly pointed earz, antenna like one-quarter the size of nomral andorian aerials, id be bitching about honor one-quarter of the time, and being one-quarter tribble id have shaggy hair up to my knees.
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Old May 26 2013, 12:09 AM   #465
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

gturner wrote: View Post
^ also the different rib counts.
I sure hope you're being facetious about that rib count nonsense.
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