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Old March 27 2013, 06:22 PM   #166
CoveTom
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

mos6507 wrote: View Post
There should always only be one chair in the center of the bridge, and it should swivel. It's iconic. The Enterprise-D and most other TNG shows broke that rule, which was bad.
Not only that, but the original bridge design happens to also be the most efficient. So efficient that it was studied by our real life U.S. Navy. TOS, the TOS movies, and DS9 (on the Defiant) got it right and stuck to that. But TNG, the TNG movies, and Voyager unfortunately moved away from it and it made their bridges seem far less efficient, IMHO.
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Old March 27 2013, 06:22 PM   #167
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Also, absolutely no sensory psychologist wanabees on the bridge. Ever.
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Old March 27 2013, 07:18 PM   #168
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

scotpens wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
The miniskirts were the wrong kind of sex appeal.
I was thirteen years old when Star Trek premiered in 1966. To me, the miniskirts were exactly the right kind of sex appeal.
Given that I was two when TNG premiered, I haven't felt this young since I started having to process ID verification submissions from people born in '95 submitting driver's licenses.

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Old March 28 2013, 08:11 AM   #169
ROBE
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

On the TOS bridge if it isn't broken don't let some idiot "fix" it, I think they even considered having plants on the bridge.
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Old March 28 2013, 08:13 AM   #170
teacake
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

ROBE wrote: View Post
On the TOS bridge if it isn't broken don't let some idiot "fix" it, I think they even considered having plants on the bridge.


That's soooo bad.. but so likely. I can just see Data watering the potted palms by the science station.
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Old March 28 2013, 08:45 AM   #171
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Didn't the Enterprise-E Captain's chair swivel? If not I'll pretend that it did.
Hey ROBE. Nice to see Lara work her way into trekbbs.
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Old March 28 2013, 07:07 PM   #172
ROBE
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Another thing is the Enterprise's complete lack of realistic chain of command. Okay I accept for dramatic reasons a captain being more hands on than in real life.
However Trek has been awful re ratings/enlisted.
Apart from Yeoman Rand who disappears after a few episodes all main characters are officers.
She then gets replaced by one off yeoman.
It wasn't until O'Brien we had a Senior Chief petty officer and even he started as an officer and was retconned into being enlisted.
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Old March 28 2013, 10:41 PM   #173
TheGoodNews
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
What I want to see is people who just sit on their ass on the beach their whole life, replicating their needs. Where are these people? Because I'd sure as hell be one of them in this glorious future.
Exactly. Gene Roddenberry apparently thought that human nature could be re-shaped to suit a politico-economic ideology, and vices like laziness could be done away with. He was naive.

This "evolved humanity" concept was analogous to the "New Soviet man" push that worked out so well in Russia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Soviet_man
Keep in mind that George Orwell did in fact observe some dramatic social changes in the Anarcho-Syndicalist controlled parts of Spain during the Spanish Revolution.

"There was no unemployment, and the price of living was still extremely low; you saw very few destitute people, and no beggars except the gypsies. Above all, there was a belief in the revolution and the future, a feeling of having suddenly emerged into an era of equality and freedom. Human beings were trying to behave as human beings and not as cogs in the capitalist machine. In the barbers' shops were Anarchist notices (the barbers were mostly Anarchists) solmenly explaining that barbers were no longer slaves. In the streets were coloured posters appealing to prostitutes to stop being prostitutes." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia (page 6)

"Many of the normal motives of civilized life-snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc-had simply ceased to exist." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia (page 104)

"In every country in the world a huge tribe of party-hacks and sleek little professors are busy 'proving' that Socialism means no more than a planned state-capitalism with the grab-motive left intact. But fortunately there also exists a vision of Socialism quite different from this." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia (page 104)

"As far as my purely personal preferences went I would have liked to join the Anarchists." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia (bottom of page 116)

This happened during the late 1930's. So it is possible under the right set of conditions. And remember, Iain Banks described his "Culture" series (which takes place in a moneyless, space-faring society) as Anarchists because he felt centralized control would be very impractical in space and that self-reliance and cooperation would be essential.
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Old March 28 2013, 10:49 PM   #174
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

There were a lot of bad ideas (like no money) but there has always been one conversation I wanted to see.

Imagine, its sometime inbetween Enterprise and TOS. A male admiral in charge of uniform design is talking to a female officer


Admiral: Now, I want to talk to you about the new uniform design. These blue jumpsuits have been around since before the federation, so we've designed something new. We want to know what the female officers think. Will you look at these images?

Female officer: Sure.

Admiral hands over the images.

Officer: Uh, you seemed to have forgotten the pants on the female uniforms.

Admirals: Actually, we're really proud of that part. It...uh....makes the legs less sweaty. Its more effecient.

Officer: Then why don't the males have to wear them?

Admiral: A guy in a mini skirt? Outrageous.

Officer: Female officers have the right to wear the same

Admiral: Well, we're done for today. Thanks for the imput.

Seriously, I get the real life reason, but in universe it seems very sexist to make all the women go from wearing basically the same uniform as the guys to wearing stupid mini-skirts. I know Number One in the pilot wore a normal uniform, but she is the only female officer I can think of in TOS (not counting movies, obviously) who didn't have to wear a mini-skirt. I don't see it being a very popular change. some may have liked it, but I have to imagine that the majority of female officers wouldn't take kindly to the idea that they would be forced to wear mini-skirts. But, knowing Star Trek, maybe it was only on Kirk's enterprise. If you serve on Kirk's ship, you have to show your legs
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Old March 28 2013, 10:58 PM   #175
TheGoodNews
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Joseph Sisko also had employees working for him. Just what makes people want to be a waiter at a restaurant? O clean dishes? It's not to pay for university, save up for a car or any of that stuff. Hell, what do people who don't join Starfleet and have no science interests or aspirations do? Hell, robocops have even been built for law enforcement!
Consider this Wormhole:

"In most anarchist collectives money was abolished. 'Here in Fraga,' the local paper proclaimed in blazing pride, 'you can throw banknotes into the street and no one will take any notice. Rockefeller, if you were to come to Fraga with your entire bank account you would not be able to buy a cup of coffee. Money, your God and your servant has been abolished and the people are happy.'" - The Spanish Civil War by A. Beevor.

As for running a restaurant in a moneyless economy:

"In Barcelona the Ritz was used by the CNT and the UGT as 'Gastronomic Unit Number One' - a public canteen for all those in need...Everyone who went was supposed to have a pass from his local committee, but the guards 'refused to be bureaucratic.' Not only did few people attempt to eat twice but according to Langdon-Davies, little of the Ritz cutlery disappeared. The anarchists ascribed this to the fact that it now belonged neither to a private concern, nor to the state, the people did not steal from themselves." The Spanish Civil War by A. Beevor.

Productivity was said to have improved under anarcho-syndicalism as middle men, top-down corporate control were replaced by total workers' control, thereby reducing operating costs and improving communication and coordination. Money wasn't a necessary incentive when there was greater abundance and the people were in control of their own means in a mutual aid economy.
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Old March 28 2013, 11:12 PM   #176
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
King Daniel wrote: View Post
yousirname wrote: View Post
No money isn't post-TOS, I'm pretty sure.
The idea first cropped up in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.
I always took Kirk's comment about "They're still using money" and telling Gillian that they "don't have money in the future" was a reference to not using currency rather than not having a monetary system.
Or it may be that if one lives in one of the most monetized and commoddified societies in our globalized, neo-liberal economy, that the idea of a moneyless society seems incomprehensible to them. The effects of what Gramsci called "Cultural Hegemony."

"Some collectives did in fact abolish money. They had no means of exchange, not even coupons." The Anarchist Collectives by Sam Dolgoff.

"What does it mean, 'exact change?'" - Spock stepping off the bus in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.
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Old March 28 2013, 11:49 PM   #177
T'Girl
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
'Here in Fraga,' the local paper proclaimed in blazing pride, 'you can throw banknotes into the street and no one will take any notice.
It occurred to me that the people throwing banknotes into the street could be charged with littering. But with no money, how would the offenders be fined?

"What does it mean, 'exact change?'" - Spock stepping off the bus in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.
Captain. I'm also curious as to how you propose to explain to Starfleet Command that a starship will be sent each year to collect our cut.

Mister Spock. I propose our cut be put into the planetary treasury and used to guide the Iotians into a more ethical system.


Kirk and Spock in A Piece Of The Action, discussing money as if somehow they both knew exactly what it was. TheGoodNews, how would you explain Spock's lack of knowledge as to the meaning of "exact change?"

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Old March 29 2013, 12:08 AM   #178
yousirname
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Neither I nor anyone I know has ever used a spinning wheel, but I know what it is.
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Old March 29 2013, 12:11 AM   #179
BillJ
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
'Here in Fraga,' the local paper proclaimed in blazing pride, 'you can throw banknotes into the street and no one will take any notice.
It occurred to me that the people throwing banknotes into the street could be charged with littering. But with no money, how would the offenders be fined?

"What does it mean, 'exact change?'" - Spock stepping off the bus in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home.
Captain. I'm also curious as to how you propose to explain to Starfleet Command that a starship will be sent each year to collect our cut.

Mister Spock. I propose our cut be put into the planetary treasury and used to guide the Iotians into a more ethical system.


Kirk and Spock in A Piece Of The Action, discussing money as if somehow they both knew exactly what it was. TheGoodNews, how would you explain Spock's lack of knowledge as to the meaning of "exact change?"

He knows the words just not the cultural context.
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Old March 29 2013, 12:21 AM   #180
TheGoodNews
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
TheGoodNews wrote: View Post
'Here in Fraga,' the local paper proclaimed in blazing pride, 'you can throw banknotes into the street and no one will take any notice.
It occurred to me that the people throwing banknotes into the street could be charged with littering. But with no money, how would the offenders be fined?
I suppose the locals and the CNT would both look at it as a spontaneous, festive outbreak of joy among the newly liberated gentry and would know better not to interfere. Clean up time could wait and with everyone now acting in solidarity it would but only take a few minutes.

"What does it mean, 'exact change?'" - Spock stepping off the bus in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. Captain. I'm also curious as to how you propose to explain to Starfleet Command that a starship will be sent each year to collect our cut.

Mister Spock. I propose our cut be put into the planetary treasury and used to guide the Iotians into a more ethical system.

Kirk and Spock in A Piece Of The Action, discussing money as if somehow they both knew exactly what it was. TheGoodNews, how would you explain Spock's lack of knowledge as to the meaning of "exact change?"

An earlier line indicates that the Federation knew the Iotians to be imitators par excellence and would have copied the historic barbarism of stereotyped American gangsters in all its particulars to a tee. Kirk and Spock could have prepped with a briefing and could have learned the rest as they went along.

As for Spock wondering what "exact change" means, as Dr. McCoy said, "he's not exactly working on all thrusters." And Kirk by his comment "they're still using money, we need to get some" knew money was used historically but obviously didn't understand some of its particulars like when he asked the Antique dealer if $100 was alot or shrugged when Spock asked what exact change means. Kirk is supposed to be a 23rd century man who flies around the galaxy studying strange new worlds, he probably doesn't have as must time as he'd like to routinely study 20th century colloquialisms. And what era, region and dialect of the 20th century would he focus on, anyway? Their mission was literally done on the fly and with very little time.

Kirk: "I think he did a little too much LDS."

People make mistakes y'know.
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