RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,957
Posts: 5,480,181
Members: 25,057
Currently online: 474
Newest member: Ghost_of_Bubba

TrekToday headlines

USS Enterprise Press-Out And Build Manual
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

New QMx USS Reliant Model
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

Star Trek Thirty-Five Years On 35MM: A Retrospective
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

Trek Shirt And Hoodie
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

A Klingon Christmas Carol’s Last Season
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

Attack Wing Wave 10 Expansion Pack
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

New Star Trek Funko Pop! Vinyl Figures
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

QMx Mini Phaser Ornament
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Stewart as Neo-Nazi Skinhead
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Klingon Bloodwine To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 17 2013, 02:57 PM   #181
HGN2001
Commander
 
HGN2001's Avatar
 
Location: Sunny Central Florida
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

Christopher wrote: View Post
HGN2001 wrote: View Post
It happened on MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE too - while the show was still on CBS.
I don't recall any such instances. Sure, the sixth-season "Invasion" was pretty similar to the first-season "Operation Rogosh," but they weren't identical and they had different writing credits.
Okay, I'll concede that one. My statement came from an interpretation of a paragraph in THE COMPLETE MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE DOSSIER by Patrick J. White, wherein Mr White writes in the notes for the seventh season episode, "Two Thousand" (emphasis mine):

"Two Thousand" is fresh, audacious, and outrageous--unless of course you've already seen episode 4, "Operation Rogosh." This show is simply a more expensive-looking remake of the earlier classic. Just like in "Rogosh," there are futuristic dates inscribed in Collin's cell walls, and Barney repeats the Carribean prisoner character he originated six years earlier.
After reading that, you can understand why I thought it was a direct remake of the same script, yet the writers credits are different. So my apologies for my incorrect assumptions.

Christopher wrote: View Post
You have to admit that the same continuing show remaking one of its own scripts after only five years is a rather different situation. I've seen a number of shows with unbroken runs longer than five years, but I can't think of any other instance of the same show shooting the same script twice.
I also have a feeling - and no proof - that there may have been episodes of BEWITCHED with recycled scripts and different Darrens. A BEWITCHED expert could probably confirm or deny that.

As for the MANNIX recycle, the producers probably figured that the show was different enough - in season one, Mannix worked for Intertect and in all other seasons he was out on his own - that only diehard fans would remember the script.

One of the reasons MANNIX was finally canceled after eight seasons was that Paramount wanted to sell it into syndication so that ABC could run it in late-nights. In those days, syndications didn't start until the series was finished its prime time network run - a situation that would soon change.

So, the thought process was probably that no-one would recall that earlier version of the same script. And season one was never offered in syndication.

Harry
HGN2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17 2013, 03:09 PM   #182
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

Melakon wrote: View Post
Also during the summers of the 1960s, networks would sometimes create a show title but just run unsold tv pilots, as if they were an anthology series. I think that mostly stopped due to complaints from the unions regarding residual benefits.
Oh, the networks were doing "showcases" like that well into the '80s. In the '60s, though, they often did actual summer-replacement series, often variety shows and such. Reruns existed, but were far less common than they later became. In fact, I've seen it asserted that it was the success of Star Trek in rerun syndication -- with far fewer episodes, and thus more repetition, than a standard syndication package would have -- that convinced TV programmers that audiences would tolerate more reruns, and led to the ongoing reduction in the number of new episodes per year that we've had ever since.


Forbin wrote: View Post
Then there was that TNG ep where Riker is accused of murdering an alien scientist to get his wife, and they reenct the crime on a holodeck. The same script was recycled on Voyager with Tom Paris in the hot seat. Can't recall either ep title at the moment.
Those were not the same story. In TNG's "A Matter of Perspective" by Ed Zuckerman, which was a riff on Rashomon, the holodeck was used to reconstruct the crime from various perspectives. In VGR's "Ex Post Facto" by Evan Carlos Somers and Michael Piller, Tom Paris was forced to relive the victim's memories of the crime over and over, and Tuvok used a mind meld to experience Paris's own memories; no holodeck was involved.

It's true that there were some stories that were very similar in concept, like DS9's "Shadowplay" and ENT's "Oasis" or DS9's "Children of Time" and ENT's "E^2." But they were still different scripts by different writers. Using similar concepts is not the same as actually remaking the same script, which is what we're talking about here. The two Mannix episodes under discussion had different titles and character names, but they were both credited to John Meredyth Lucas.


And if you wanna see a complete theft, watch the closing scenes of Babylon 5's "Mind War", then watch the closing scenes of Voyager's "The Gift." Complete. Rip. off.
Oh, come on. Different stories have similarities to each other all the time. That's not deliberate theft, it's just because there are only so many ways to put story elements together. And we're not talking about perceived similarities between different stories, we're talking about the exact same script being refilmed. That's a completely different subject.


HGN2001 wrote: View Post
Okay, I'll concede that one. My statement came from an interpretation of a paragraph in THE COMPLETE MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE DOSSIER by Patrick J. White, wherein Mr White writes in the notes for the seventh season episode, "Two Thousand" (emphasis mine):

"Two Thousand" is fresh, audacious, and outrageous--unless of course you've already seen episode 4, "Operation Rogosh." This show is simply a more expensive-looking remake of the earlier classic. Just like in "Rogosh," there are futuristic dates inscribed in Collin's cell walls, and Barney repeats the Carribean prisoner character he originated six years earlier.
After reading that, you can understand why I thought it was a direct remake of the same script, yet the writers credits are different. So my apologies for my incorrect assumptions.
Quoting from my own blog review of "Two Thousand":
Despite what I said in my “Operation: Rogosh” review, this episode isn’t nearly as much a remake of that one as “Invasion” was.
Though of course neither was literally a remake; all three scripts had different credits.



As for the MANNIX recycle, the producers probably figured that the show was different enough - in season one, Mannix worked for Intertect and in all other seasons he was out on his own - that only diehard fans would remember the script.

One of the reasons MANNIX was finally canceled after eight seasons was that Paramount wanted to sell it into syndication so that ABC could run it in late-nights. In those days, syndications didn't start until the series was finished its prime time network run - a situation that would soon change.

So, the thought process was probably that no-one would recall that earlier version of the same script. And season one was never offered in syndication.
Well, that makes sense. Sort of like how The Naked Gun reused a lot of jokes from Police Squad! because that show had been cancelled after 6 episodes and they didn't expect anyone would ever see it again. But really, what surprises me is not so much that Mannix did it, but that I can't recall any other show from the era doing it.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog

Last edited by Christopher; August 17 2013 at 03:21 PM.
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 02:03 AM   #183
Josan
Commodore
 
Josan's Avatar
 
Location: London, Canada
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Josan
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

I've been doing a re-watch of Hogan's Heroes lately and I'm completely surprised at how many guest actors from TOS did Hogan's Heroes too.

I'll be watching and all of a sudden, Hey! There's Eve. There's Joe Tormolen. There's Sylvia. There's Korob. There's Manager Lurry from K-7. I haven't kept count but I'd say I've probably seen about a dozen guests from TOS that did Hogan's Heroes. And Marc Daniels directed his share of Hogan's Heroes episodes.

I just find it interesting because as a kid growing up in the late 70s and early 80s I watched a lot of 60s re-runs and I've never seen so many TOS guests. In Gilligan's Island for example, I can only think of one, which is Stanley Adams (Cyrano Jones).
__________________
Winterwind - Re-vamped and Re-launched July 2013
http://www.winterwind-productions.com
Issue 19 of the Winterwind Papers now online
Nationalism, brotherhood, 'pop' culture and puppy love
Josan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 03:14 AM   #184
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

Josan wrote: View Post
I just find it interesting because as a kid growing up in the late 70s and early 80s I watched a lot of 60s re-runs and I've never seen so many TOS guests. In Gilligan's Island for example, I can only think of one, which is Stanley Adams (Cyrano Jones).
Mickey Morton (Kloog) was in the same episode where Adams appeared. Also, Michael Forest (Apollo) played an island native in the Gilligan's Island episode "Slave Girl."

Some more obscure connections: Billy Curtis, who was one of the fez-wearing gold-skinned ambassadors in "Journey to Babel," appeared in a dream sequence in "Lovey's Secret Admirer." Janos Prohaska played a gorilla in three Gilligan episodes (and probably any other show that featured a gorilla in the '60s). And Charles Maxwell, who played Virgil Earp in "Spectre of the Gun," was in more Gilligan episodes than anyone but the seven leads, though he was never credited; he was the voice on the radio.

And he's not a TOS guest, but Frank Corsentino, who played three different Ferengi in TNG and VGR, made his screen debut as a "Native" in a GI episode. Also, the first Gilligan reunion movie had Vincent Schiavelli (TNG: "The Arsenal of Freedom") and the third had Rosalind Chao.

Not to mention that GI's music for most of the series was composed by Gerald Fried, best known for scoring "Amok Time." (Before that it was by Johnny Williams, better known today as John Williams.)

Maybe what's surprising is that GI guests like Hans Conreid, Vito Scotti, Nehemiah Persoff, and the teenaged Kurt Russell never did Star Trek when they were so ubiquitous on '60s TV.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 03:35 AM   #185
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Bedford Falls
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

I knew that "modern Trek" was getting long in the tooth when I was watching episodes of ENT and could think of at least two episodes of different Trek series that had used the same basic plot.

On the subject of direct remakes being made within the same series over the course of years, it reminds me of a phenomenon that I've read used to happen in comics back in the 50s and 60s. Members of the Legion of Super-Heroes such as Mon-El, Star Boy, and Sun Boy were introduced in Superboy stories that were thinly-veiled remakes of Superman or Superboy stories that had only been published around 5 years earlier. The belief in the industry at the time was that kids outgrew comics and the then-current readers wouldn't have seen the earlier versions of the stories.

Christopher wrote: View Post
And Charles Maxwell, who played Virgil Earp in "Spectre of the Gun," was in more Gilligan episodes than anyone but the seven leads
Were there seven leads...or were there five leads "and all the rest"...?
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 03:37 AM   #186
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: 221B BakerStreet
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
I knew that "modern Trek" was getting long in the tooth when I was watching episodes of ENT and could think of at least two episodes of different Trek series that had used the same basic plot.

On the subject of direct remakes being made within the same series over the course of years, it reminds me of a phenomenon that I've read used to happen in comics back in the 50s and 60s. Members of the Legion of Super-Heroes such as Mon-El, Star Boy, and Sun Boy were introduced in Superboy stories that were thinly-veiled remakes of Superman or Superboy stories that had only been published around 5 years earlier. The belief in the industry at the time was that kids outgrew comics and the then-current readers wouldn't have seen the earlier versions of the stories.

Christopher wrote: View Post
And Charles Maxwell, who played Virgil Earp in "Spectre of the Gun," was in more Gilligan episodes than anyone but the seven leads
Were there seven leads...or were there five leads "and all the rest"...?
Depends on which version of the theme song you like.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 03:42 AM   #187
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Bedford Falls
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

^It was the original "yada yada yada"!
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 03:46 AM   #188
Melakon
Vice Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

According to the book by Russell Johnson (the Professor), Bob Denver forced a showdown with the producers to get Johnson's and Dawn Wells' names in the opening credits. Johnson didn't learn this until years later, after the show ended. Apparently, Denver's contract allowed him to choose how he would be billed. He threatened to have his own name appear in the end credits, if Johnson and Wells weren't moved up front.
__________________
Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard: For duty and humanity! --Men in Black (1934)
Melakon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 03:52 AM   #189
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

And if you wanna see a complete theft, watch the closing scenes of Babylon 5's "Mind War", then watch the closing scenes of Voyager's "The Gift." Complete. Rip. off.
Oh, come on. Different stories have similarities to each other all the time. That's not deliberate theft, it's just because there are only so many ways to put story elements together. And we're not talking about perceived similarities between different stories, we're talking about the exact same script being refilmed. That's a completely different subject.
No, I'm dead serious. Watch the closing scenes of both eps , B5 first, then V'ger. They're not just similar, it's c;early ripped off. There's even stolen dialog.
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 03:56 AM   #190
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

And we're not talking about perceived similarities between different stories, we're talking about the exact same script being refilmed. That's a completely different subject.
Ah, okay. Never mind then.
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 04:05 AM   #191
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

I seem to recall BaBara Luna claiming her "Buck Rogers" episode pretty much recycled the plot from an episode of some old Western she'd previously guest-starred on. (Bonanza?) Luna played essentially the same part in both versions, which were also written and/or directed by the same guy. According to her, they had joked at the time about the fact they were doing the same story--but this time in space!

Forgive my fuzzy memory, but this was something she mentioned in person at a Star Trek event many, many years ago.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 04:21 AM   #192
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

Forbin wrote: View Post
No, I'm dead serious. Watch the closing scenes of both eps , B5 first, then V'ger. They're not just similar, it's c;early ripped off. There's even stolen dialog.
We're getting way off-topic here, but here are transcripts of both:

"Mind War"

"The Gift"

I see no identical dialogue. One or two similar lines, but similar is not identical. There are some broad similarities in the climactic situations, but there are clear differences as well.

And it's inevitable that different works of fiction dealing with similar concepts and tropes will have similarities. Creators in the same culture and the same genre are drawing on the same conceptual foundations and vocabulary, and there are only so many ways those building blocks can be put together into a coherent narrative. So stories unintentionally resemble each other all the time. Literally the most common reason why story pitches to any television series get rejected is "We're already doing a story like that." I experienced that myself twice when I tried pitching to Star Trek. Heck, I mailed in a TNG spec script and then a very similar episode aired only 10 days later! Such coincidences are unavoidable. Every writer has experienced them. It's not theft, it's just working from a common palette of ideas, inspirations, and tropes.

Now can we please drop these ridiculous accusations and get back on topic?
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 04:28 AM   #193
Melakon
Vice Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I seem to recall BaBara Luna claiming her "Buck Rogers" episode pretty much recycled the plot from an episode of some old Western she'd previously guest-starred on. (Bonanza?) Luna played essentially the same part in both versions, which were also written and/or directed by the same guy. According to her, they had joked at the time about the fact they were doing the same story--but this time in space!

Forgive my fuzzy memory, but this was something she mentioned in person at a Star Trek event many, many years ago.
BarBara only did one episode of Bonanza, but neither the director or writer of the episode worked on the Buck Rogers episodes (2) she was in. She did make appearances in several western series though. And I spotted director Vincent McEveety's name on one of the Buck Rogers she did (Time of the Hawk), so maybe it's him.

Found it perhaps, she and McEveety both worked on an episode of Cimarron Strip (The Legend of Jud Starr), with guest Darren McGavin.
__________________
Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard: For duty and humanity! --Men in Black (1934)

Last edited by Melakon; August 18 2013 at 04:47 AM. Reason: Additional research
Melakon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 07:34 AM   #194
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

There was an episode of Alias Smith and Jones in 1971 which reused a Gene Roddenberry story/Howard Browne teleplay from The Virginian in 1963. I am not sure how similar the episodes are, having seen neither, but the co-writers received credit on both shows and the synopses on IMDB are very similar.
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2013, 02:42 PM   #195
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: Trek guest actors in maybe surprising roles

Christopher Bennet, defender of the faith!!

Okay, okay, back to our scheduled programming.
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:34 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.