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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old March 11 2013, 02:38 PM   #61
Dick Whitman
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

The fans. Or some fans. A lot of the perceptions of rules have always come from fans.
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Old March 11 2013, 02:42 PM   #62
The Wormhole
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

Ovation wrote: View Post
Or maybe, and I know this might be a shocking idea, they are expanding the range of designs because, well, they can (after all, who says there's only one proper "design" rule?).
Well, Roddenberry did lay down starship design rules when it came to how many nacelles a ship can have, but that's not the issue here.

I want to know what practical purpose a second deflector dish can serve? Especially since there are at least three starship designs which don't have one at all, why the hell does this one need two? I can't see any. Either Bad Robot is just trying to be kewl by adding a bunch of unnecessary shit, or whoever designed the ship is insecure about something.
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Old March 11 2013, 03:00 PM   #63
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
I want to know what practical purpose a second deflector dish can serve? Especially since there are at least three starship designs which don't have one at all, why the hell does this one need two?
To compensate for the missing deflectors from the other ships. Balance must be restored. Plus, the damn things were taking up valuable space in the warehouse.
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Old March 11 2013, 03:02 PM   #64
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

SalvorHardin wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
I want to know what practical purpose a second deflector dish can serve? Especially since there are at least three starship designs which don't have one at all, why the hell does this one need two?
To compensate for the missing deflectors from the other ships. Balance must be restored.
For effectively ruining my argument, this idea is best left ignored.
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Old March 11 2013, 03:07 PM   #65
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

^Let's just forget about it then and carry on...



I think I might just boycott if no one comes up with a valid explanation for this deflector travesty.
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Old March 11 2013, 03:23 PM   #66
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
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BillJ wrote: View Post

But did those rules even exist while Kirk was command? While I don't have an issue with the 'rule-breaker' Kirk we see in the new movies, it seems much more reflective of the pop-culture interpretation of the character that started with TWOK. The TOS version of the character was a 'big risk, big reward' kind of guy, but I never really saw him as a rule breaker. YMMV.
I've always believed this, too. The idea of Kirk as a rule breaker has become exaggerated over time. So was his messing around with time lines.

Kirk himself said he was the "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" type, so he was a risk taker. But at worst, he sometimes bent or massaged rules. A lot of times, he saw himself in a position where there probably wasn't a rule to follow, let alone violate. I think only the most bureaucratic and literal-minded types in Starfleet would think of Kirk as a rule breaker.
Whenever he faced a Prime Directive situation, he was never the one to have broken it in the first place. The Prime Directive allowed judicious actions to restore balance to cultures, and that was what Kirk did in "Bread and Circuses", "Patterns of Force", and "A Private Little War".

Now, I can bet a young Captain Kirk would be seen as a pain in the ass to the Starfleet Admiralty, and I bet trying to defend or vouch for him all the time wore Pike out.

But that's James T. Kirk. You wouldn't want every starship captain to be like him, but you come to realize you're damn glad you've got the one. As I posted elsewhere, I would suspect that at age 46 or 56, James T. Kirk, either James T. Kirk would try to stop that volcano from destroying the civilization on that planet. So that's very in character. The part of it that I think is seriously out of character for this or any Kirk, is
Return of the Archons--Destroyed the Landru computer
The Apple--Destroys Vaal
A Private Little War--Arms one side with Flint-locks
A Piece of the Action--The Federation has to come back for its "cut."
The Search for Spock--Steals the Enterprise, defies Starfleet orders.

He's been a rule-breaker for a long time. But how did he stay in command? Probably by lying. Gene Roddenberry never addressed it in the series, but Jim Kirk does a lot of things we mere mortals couldn't get away with. And, often, like in Amok Time and The Menagerie, Kirk would be bailed out for defying Starfleet's orders by Starfleet saying "it's okay" after the fact.
There's no doubt he stretched rules but none of the cultures below were pristine. The natural development of all of them had been compromised long before Kirk showed up.
-- "Return of the Archons": The culture had already been polluted by the Archons 100 years earlier. Arguably, how can you interfer in the "natural" development of a culture that's already been compromised?
-- "The Apple": The argument was Vaal was stifling the natural development of the culture. It's unlikely that these people created Vaal. So this culture was probably already contaminated in the past.
-- "A Private Little War": The Klingons were already there.
-- "A Piece of the Action": Again, a culture that was previously contaminated by an earlier Federation ship.
-- "The Search for Spock": Yes, here he blatantly broke rules, because he felt a stronger obligation to Spock than he did Starfleet orders in that case. And in TVH he was willing to go back to Earth to face punishment. He stood up and pled guilty to all charges without a defense.

I think part of the leeway Kirk was given in the show to make largely autonomous decisions and interpret things for himself centered around the implicit idea of being in deep space, and not always in a position to consult "Starfleet lawyers" or poll the admiralty for a consensus about how to proceed in every crisis. As I said before, for Kirk, it was easier to apologize than to get permission.

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Old March 11 2013, 03:27 PM   #67
The Wormhole
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

SalvorHardin wrote: View Post
^Let's just forget about it then and carry on...



I think I might just boycott if no one comes up with a valid explanation for this deflector travesty.
Exactly! This calls for nothing less that for fans to boycott the movie and a petition to Paramount to remove Abrams and his ass clowns from authority over Trek. They no longer deserve the privelege of making Trek. The purity and sanctity of Star Trek is at risk. A True Fan know what I'm talking about.

But, I may be lenient if someone from Bad Robot takes the time to offer an explanation, provided it's perfectly canonically sound and doesn't rape my childhood.
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Old March 11 2013, 03:41 PM   #68
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

Franklin wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post

I've always believed this, too. The idea of Kirk as a rule breaker has become exaggerated over time. So was his messing around with time lines.

Kirk himself said he was the "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" type, so he was a risk taker. But at worst, he sometimes bent or massaged rules. A lot of times, he saw himself in a position where there probably wasn't a rule to follow, let alone violate. I think only the most bureaucratic and literal-minded types in Starfleet would think of Kirk as a rule breaker.
Whenever he faced a Prime Directive situation, he was never the one to have broken it in the first place. The Prime Directive allowed judicious actions to restore balance to cultures, and that was what Kirk did in "Bread and Circuses", "Patterns of Force", and "A Private Little War".

Now, I can bet a young Captain Kirk would be seen as a pain in the ass to the Starfleet Admiralty, and I bet trying to defend or vouch for him all the time wore Pike out.

But that's James T. Kirk. You wouldn't want every starship captain to be like him, but you come to realize you're damn glad you've got the one. As I posted elsewhere, I would suspect that at age 46 or 56, James T. Kirk, either James T. Kirk would try to stop that volcano from destroying the civilization on that planet. So that's very in character. The part of it that I think is seriously out of character for this or any Kirk, is


Good points. I can't wait to deal with more than rumors to more fully flesh out an example. I do like that the movie has us talking about this already.
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Old March 11 2013, 03:46 PM   #69
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

And maybe this instance where Kirk lies and gets the book thrown at him is one where he grows as a commander and a leader? Maybe Kirk was elevated to command far too quickly and still has a lot left to learn? I have no problem with Kirk still finding his legs as a commander, he's still very new to the job.
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Old March 11 2013, 03:52 PM   #70
EJD1984
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

I guess we've seen the first glimpse of the starship that appears to crash in San Francisco.

The flat nacelles seems to match up.
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Old March 11 2013, 04:04 PM   #71
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

The Stig wrote: View Post
And maybe this instance where Kirk lies and gets the book thrown at him is one where he grows as a commander and a leader? Maybe Kirk was elevated to command far too quickly and still has a lot left to learn? I have no problem with Kirk still finding his legs as a commander, he's still very new to the job.
That's the most logical place to take the character. You have to remember he went from Cadet to Captain overnight because of Nero. I think the case could be made that Kirk is changed by not having a strong father figure, or really have anyone to respect in the chain of command, the way he was made Captain. He was facing penalty because of the Kobiashi Maru, bursts onto the bridge to tell Pike they are headed into a trap, gets promoted to First officer, beats up some security officers when he's told to leave the bridge, provokes Spock into getting the Captain's chair, and nowhere in there does he have to say "Sir." It felt cheap in the first film, at least it did to me. Remember, he's still the kid who races a car off the side of a canyon and takes on 4 guys in a barfight (which he loses). Prime Spock and Nero are telling him he will become a great Captain, and that he should have the Enterprise, without checking the stardate to see where he should be as a commander. That's feeding his arrogance that he's doing nothing wrong, needs no tempering of his character, the "leap without looking." Imagine if this were First Contact, and we gave Zephram Cochrane the warp engine without checking to see if he had the technical know-how to build it. Prime Spock pollutes the timeline to get all the people on the Enterprise that were there in his timeline. "Trans-warp beaming," etc.

I don't understand why Prime Spock didn't make the calculations to slingshot around the sun and fix the mistake he made, giving Nero no reason to go on his revenge tour, but c'est la vie. Star Trek 2009 has plot holes. The sky is blue. Rain is wet.
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Old March 11 2013, 04:04 PM   #72
F. King Daniel
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

The Stig wrote: View Post
*ANNOYING SPOILERS*
Use spoiler tags, please. We haven't all read about the 40-minute preview.
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Old March 11 2013, 04:16 PM   #73
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

King Daniel wrote: View Post
The Stig wrote: View Post
*ANNOYING SPOILERS*
Use spoiler tags, please. We haven't all read about the 40-minute preview.
Nothing I said was a spoiler in any way. Kirk's clearly being reprimanded in the trailer that is the subject of this thread.
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Old March 11 2013, 04:20 PM   #74
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

The stuff about Kirk lying about something?
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Old March 11 2013, 04:25 PM   #75
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Re: Trek Trailer with OZ

King Daniel wrote: View Post
The stuff about Kirk lying about something?
I didn't say anything about that directly. Relax, already.
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