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Old March 9 2013, 06:41 PM   #16
C.E. Evans
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Re: Captain Solok

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
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Actually, Vulcans do have emotions. They simply suppress them.
Of course. But Solok is clearly failing in his suppression of emotions. His gloating, smirking, and anti-Human prejudice clearly demonstrate this.
Actually, I don't agree with this at all. With the case of Solok, it's merely a case of renewing a rivalry with an old friend.
Spock, half-human, is more Vulcan than Solok could ever claim to be.
No, Solok is merely different than Spock. Although they share many tendencies, not all Vulcans are alike. But even Spock enjoyed getting into it with McCoy now and then. T'Pol even had a condescending attitude towards Humans when she first joined the crew of Archer's Enterprise.
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Old March 9 2013, 06:44 PM   #17
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Re: Captain Solok

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
even Spock enjoyed getting into it with McCoy now and then. T'Pol even had a condescending attitude towards Humans when she first joined the crew of Archer's Enterprise.
Neither of those got anywhere near Solok's level.

At least Spock and T'Pol showed respect for the humans they served with. (Spock's banter with McCoy might have seemed like insults, but they were clearly still friends. And whatever distaste T'Pol might have felt was clearly tempered with her own professionalism.)

Hell, not even Soval was as much of a dick as Solok. Soval would be appalled at Solok's attitude.
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Old March 9 2013, 07:13 PM   #18
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Re: Captain Solok

^^^
I really can't agree with much of that. You may not personally like Solok, and that's fine, but I think a lot of the things you're attributing to him stems out of long-standing competitive relationship with Sisko in which they constantly tried to show the other up.
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Old March 9 2013, 08:17 PM   #19
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Re: Captain Solok

Even though Spock is the baseline standard for Vulcans, remember that as a half-human, Spock went above and beyond in trying to suppress his emotions, even going so far as to try to achieve kolinahr. In order to compensate for his human half, Spock had to be more Vulcan than the Vulcans. Regular Vulcans, I think, were never so emotionless as he was.
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Old March 9 2013, 08:40 PM   #20
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Re: Captain Solok

Touching on the subject of Solok possibly renewing a rivalry in a more friendly way than some think it is, isn't it important to consider that Sisko doesn't perceive it as a game? Sisko is obviously taking it quite personally and seriously. Perceptions are real and if it's just a game to Solok, Sisko isn't finding it funny or believes Solok intends it as personal.

I'm open to either interpretation really as I've seen great arguments in this thread. Solok does seem a bit T'Pol like in that his emotions don't seem far from the surface and he does seem rather motivated by less than logical pursuits. He expends a lot of time and effort in rubbing Sisko's nose in it time and time again. The fact that Solok accepted the challenge to a wrestling match with a drunk human is interesting.

And Solok who refuses "to engage in this human game of taunting" has in fact been taunting Sisko for years. He can dish it out, but he doesn't take it very well.

I find Solok fascinating. It would have been nice to see more of him.
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Old March 9 2013, 09:00 PM   #21
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Re: Captain Solok

Sadara wrote: View Post
Touching on the subject of Solok possibly renewing a rivalry in a more friendly way than some think it is, isn't it important to consider that Sisko doesn't perceive it as a game? Sisko is obviously taking it quite personally and seriously. Perceptions are real and if it's just a game to Solok, Sisko isn't finding it funny or believes Solok intends it as personal.
Sisko is as competitive as Solok is and takes the rivalry more seriously because he's been often (if not always) at the losing end of it. Sisko has far more incentive to beat Solok, IMO.
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Old March 9 2013, 11:49 PM   #22
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Re: Captain Solok

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No doubt the reason that the T'Kumbra had an all-Vulcan crew was because of Solok's racial prejudice and intolerance - he probably wouldn't ALLOW any non-Vulcans to serve on his ship. And who knows if the T'Kumbra would even answer a distress call from a human-crewed ship, or lift a proverbial finger to save anyone who was not Vulcan?
That's a pretty big stretch. Solok clearly didn't like non-Vulcans, but there was nothing to suggest that he wanted them all dead.
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Old March 10 2013, 12:58 AM   #23
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Re: Captain Solok

I agree that it's taking the idea of Solok's prejudices too far. Hell, Solok was decorated for his actions in defense of the Federation, that alone suggests he gives a shit about humans.
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Old March 10 2013, 01:02 AM   #24
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Re: Captain Solok

-Brett- wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
No doubt the reason that the T'Kumbra had an all-Vulcan crew was because of Solok's racial prejudice and intolerance - he probably wouldn't ALLOW any non-Vulcans to serve on his ship. And who knows if the T'Kumbra would even answer a distress call from a human-crewed ship, or lift a proverbial finger to save anyone who was not Vulcan?
That's a pretty big stretch. Solok clearly didn't like non-Vulcans, but there was nothing to suggest that he wanted them all dead.
There's not really anything to suggest he didn't like non-Vulcans, for that matter. He boasted that Vulcans were superior because they aren't governed by their emotions, but that does not equate to a dislike of non-Vulcans, but rather snobbery.

And Vulcans can be very snobbish at times.
LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
I agree that it's taking the idea of Solok's prejudices too far. Hell, Solok was decorated for his actions in defense of the Federation, that alone suggests he gives a shit about humans.
Exactly. Solok wanting to play baseball--of all things--with Sisko...
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Old March 10 2013, 01:04 AM   #25
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Re: Captain Solok

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
that does not equate to a dislike of non-Vulcans, but rather snobbery.
I don't see any difference between the two. If you like someone, you will - by definition - not consider yourself superior to them.
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Old March 10 2013, 01:12 AM   #26
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Re: Captain Solok

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
that does not equate to a dislike of non-Vulcans, but rather snobbery.
I don't see any difference between the two. If you like someone, you will - by definition - not consider yourself superior to them.
That's what a rivalry is. I've seen (and experienced) competitive relationships where put-downs and ribbing were common. They'd talk bad about one another, but wouldn't let anyone else do it.
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Old March 10 2013, 01:24 AM   #27
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Re: Captain Solok

^ So are you suggesting that there is some other way Sisko should have responded to Solok? To play along with the game, as it were (like the Dozens)?
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Old March 10 2013, 01:34 AM   #28
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Re: Captain Solok

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ So are you suggesting that there is some other way Sisko should have responded to Solok? To play along with the game, as it were (like the Dozens)?
Not sure what you mean by that, but there really was no way that Sisko was going to pass up Solok's baseball challenge.
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Old March 10 2013, 04:38 AM   #29
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Re: Captain Solok

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ So are you suggesting that there is some other way Sisko should have responded to Solok? To play along with the game, as it were (like the Dozens)?
Not sure what you mean by that, but there really was no way that Sisko was going to pass up Solok's baseball challenge.
And that's why Solok picked it. The deck is really stacked in Solok's favor. Vulcans being stronger, smarter, and all that, there is little that Sisko would be capable of defeating Solok at. That's why "manufactured triumph" was the way to go at the end. It allowed Sisko and the Niners to not be as bothered by the loss and Solok didn't get the reaction he wanted.

It seems like Solok isn't even really looking for a challenge. It's too easy to provoke Sisko given their history so I'd imagine Solok does it for his own amusement.
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Old March 10 2013, 05:03 AM   #30
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Re: Captain Solok

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
With the case of Solok, it's merely a case of renewing a rivalry with an old friend
I never once got the impression that Solok and Sisko were actually supposed to be friends. They certainly didn't act like they were.

Sadara wrote: View Post
I'd imagine Solok does it for his own amusement.
Which he is not supposed to have.
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