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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 15 2013, 08:05 PM   #46
WesleysDisciple
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Curious, Captain watter's seems to be one of the most universally hated Chars in star trek.

Even I can kind of sympathize with him, having gotten comfortable in his position, hoping that if he can Survive the mission, starfleet would be wowed enough to give him a permanent comission

(their probaly WERE some people as low rank as lieutenant commanding defiant class ships given how small those are.
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Old March 15 2013, 08:42 PM   #47
Pavonis
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Watters didn't want to go back because he didn't want to give up command and become a lowly ensign. He liked command and didn't want to be given orders.
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Old March 15 2013, 09:46 PM   #48
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post

(their probaly WERE some people as low rank as lieutenant commanding defiant class ships given how small those are.
They are small, but they are new, and they are pure warships, with the capabilities of a much larger ship. You wouldn't want anyone under Captain in one of those.

I could certainly see a Lt. captaining one of those century-old Miranda-class ships, though, cataloging gaseous anomalies and the like. Probably wouldn't be the ones going into battle, though (but that would explain how they were meat shields ).
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Old March 15 2013, 09:58 PM   #49
Sadara
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Curious, Captain watter's seems to be one of the most universally hated Chars in star trek.

Even I can kind of sympathize with him, having gotten comfortable in his position, hoping that if he can Survive the mission, starfleet would be wowed enough to give him a permanent comission

(their probaly WERE some people as low rank as lieutenant commanding defiant class ships given how small those are.
He's hated because he's a douchebag. If you don't agree with him you get silenced. If you still don't come around to his way of thinking and kiss his ass then you end up in the brig. He's a dictator and would rightly have been returned to the Academy had the Valiant made it home.

Anyone with an ounce of humility, responsibility, and respect for the service would understand that he should have returned the Valiant to Federation space upon assuming command. He did not have the experience or wisdom necessary to continue the mission.
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Old March 15 2013, 10:58 PM   #50
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Heard on Memory alpha that an earlier draft, had Kira along for the ride, instead of nog, but Their was no way the authors could see Kira NOT laughing off, the "Field commisions" and taking command,
As she isn't a Starfleet officer, NCO, or anything the idea that she can just take command of a Starfleet vessel like she has any authority what so ever is kind of idiotic, I mean seriously the freaking cadets commanding the ship actually make more sense than that.

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
A lot think that "Captain Watter's" Was just not eager to return to being a Cadet.
Considering they were in the middle of a war what makes you think he wouldn't have been promoted top Ensign and sent to a ship that needed crew.

tighr wrote: View Post
And yet, this episode gives us the precedent that allowed Trek'09 to happen. After saving the day, Kirk should have been granted a commission as a Lt jg, and told to report to the Lexington. Effectively only skipping the Ensign rank, and only because he saved Earth.
Kirk was already a Lieutenant and first officer of the ship, so what your saying is that they should demote him after saving them from destruction and death. And its not even the reward type demotion where it was just to get him back on the Enterprise which he really wanted.

Sadara wrote: View Post
Eh, we've seen lower ranking Starfleet Officers tell higher ranking ones to go jump in the creek before so I don't see why O'Brien would just go along with whatever Watters said either just because he's enlisted.
Depends on how the chain of command works

In The Doomsday Machine, Kirk flat kicked Commodore Decker off his bridge,
On his ship with a crew that backed him

Riker outed Admiral Pressman on the whole Federation cloaking device thingy,
On his ship with a crew that backed him

Picard took on the Admiral in Data's Day who wanted to haul Lal off the ship.
On his ship with a crew that backed him

Really you just need someone who is willing to stand up for what's right and sane. Sure they risk their career, but anyone with a conscience can do it.
True but unless its your ship and your crew which is backing you, they might not listen and will probably throw you in the brig.

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post

(their probaly WERE some people as low rank as lieutenant commanding defiant class ships given how small those are.
They are small, but they are new, and they are pure warships, with the capabilities of a much larger ship. You wouldn't want anyone under Captain in one of those.
Dax and Worf were Lt. Commanders and they were both commanding the Defiant for long periods of time, Hell when Dax was doing it Sisko had been reassigned to working with Ross and wasn't even commanding the ship anymore at that point.
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Old March 15 2013, 11:45 PM   #51
Pavonis
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
As she isn't a Starfleet officer, NCO, or anything the idea that she can just take command of a Starfleet vessel like she has any authority what so ever is kind of idiotic, I mean seriously the freaking cadets commanding the ship actually make more sense than that.
Kira may not have been Starfleet, but she wouldn't have taken any guff from Watters and the rest of his crew. She certainly wouldn't fall for Watters' charms the way Nog did. She'd either kick his ass and take the ship from him, or they'd be forced to lock her up, the way they locked up Jake.
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Old March 16 2013, 04:44 AM   #52
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
As she isn't a Starfleet officer, NCO, or anything the idea that she can just take command of a Starfleet vessel like she has any authority what so ever is kind of idiotic, I mean seriously the freaking cadets commanding the ship actually make more sense than that.
Kira may not have been Starfleet, but she wouldn't have taken any guff from Watters and the rest of his crew. She certainly wouldn't fall for Watters' charms the way Nog did. She'd either kick his ass and take the ship from him, or they'd be forced to lock her up, the way they locked up Jake.
Well seeing as the odds were the entire crew to her, I think she would have ended up in the brig. Seriously isn't doesn't really matter how badass a person is when it's everyone against them.
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Old March 16 2013, 05:30 AM   #53
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

^ Any one of those cadets who lays a finger on Kira or tries to put her in the brig is going to find themself missing key limbs.
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Old March 16 2013, 09:33 PM   #54
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Any one of those cadets who lays a finger on Kira or tries to put her in the brig is going to find themself missing key limbs.
They don't need to lay a finger on her they have phasers, intruder control systems that they have the access codes to, and transporters.
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Old March 16 2013, 11:27 PM   #55
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post

(their probaly WERE some people as low rank as lieutenant commanding defiant class ships given how small those are.
They are small, but they are new, and they are pure warships, with the capabilities of a much larger ship. You wouldn't want anyone under Captain in one of those.
Dax and Worf were Lt. Commanders and they were both commanding the Defiant for long periods of time, Hell when Dax was doing it Sisko had been reassigned to working with Ross and wasn't even commanding the ship anymore at that point.
Dax and Worf were given command of specific assignments, but Sisko was still the real, assigned captain of the Defiant.

When Sisko was re-assigned to Ross's staff, there was no captain. Dax was in command because she was the number-two officer (it would have been Worf, but he was off having fun with Martok); if Sisko had remained as a staff officer any longer, the Defiant would have gotten a new captain.
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Old March 17 2013, 12:09 AM   #56
Sadara
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

So because Jake didn't have a crew to back him up, he should have kept his mouth shut? Jake was absolutely correct in questioning the sheep mentality and sheer lunacy of the crew of that ship and if the Valiant had returned to the Federation, they would have been raked over the coals.
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Old March 17 2013, 11:14 AM   #57
tighr
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
tighr wrote: View Post
And yet, this episode gives us the precedent that allowed Trek'09 to happen. After saving the day, Kirk should have been granted a commission as a Lt jg, and told to report to the Lexington. Effectively only skipping the Ensign rank, and only because he saved Earth.
Kirk was already a Lieutenant and first officer of the ship, so what your saying is that they should demote him after saving them from destruction and death. And its not even the reward type demotion where it was just to get him back on the Enterprise which he really wanted.
Incorrect. Kirk was a third year cadet at the Academy, but presumably had completed a sufficient number of courses for graduation at that time and a subsequent commission in Starfleet (at the rank of Ensign, as commensurate with the graduation of a cadet). His stated goal was graduation in three years, which he would have done if it were not for the Narada incident. This put him on a timetable for promotion to Captain within 4 years of graduation from the Academy. He was promoted directly to Captain directly from Cadet.

Any display screen text in the film listing Kirk as a Lieutenant is counter to the facts of the film.
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Old March 17 2013, 05:36 PM   #58
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Do we know that nu-Kirk didn't have some college credits, pre-Academy, completed? Perhaps he used the academy as more of an OCS than an undergraduate institution.
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Old March 17 2013, 06:01 PM   #59
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

tighr wrote: View Post
Incorrect. Kirk was a third year cadet at the Academy, but presumably had completed a sufficient number of courses for graduation at that time and a subsequent commission in Starfleet (at the rank of Ensign, as commensurate with the graduation of a cadet).
What in the film says he has to graduate at the rank of ensign? Becuase Uhura managed to graduate at Lieutenant.

His stated goal was graduation in three years, which he would have done if it were not for the Narada incident.
If anything the Narada incident would have sped that up since they needed crews for the fleet sent to Vulcan. I just figure Pike ignored the academic suspension thing what with captain's prerogative and all.

This put him on a timetable for promotion to Captain within 4 years of graduation from the Academy. He was promoted directly to Captain directly from Cadet.
Screen still says Lieutenant which makes sense with the whole promoted to first officer thing.

Any display screen text in the film listing Kirk as a Lieutenant is counter to the facts of the film.
Only facts that you assume seems like.
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Old March 17 2013, 06:07 PM   #60
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Sadara wrote: View Post
So because Jake didn't have a crew to back him up, he should have kept his mouth shut? Jake was absolutely correct in questioning the sheep mentality and sheer lunacy of the crew of that ship and if the Valiant had returned to the Federation, they would have been raked over the coals.
Jake ins't a Starfleet officer if he wants to call them on being crazy he can go ahead, I'm just saying expecting O'Brien to just be able to relieve someone and expect it to work when the crew has no reason to go along with him isn't going to work especially since Star Trek has made relieving a captain of command seem harder to do over the years.

Honestly Bashir would have been the best bet for that since he can pull rank like that being the doctor and all.
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