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Old March 12 2013, 03:16 AM   #31
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

James T. Vader wrote: View Post
If the Federation actually drills its cadets into doing such massively misguided, downright stupid things, congratulations - you've built yourselves a military education system that any totalitarian regime could be proud of.
Good thing it doesn't. These guys all thought they were God's gift to the Universe. Layton specifically picked these douchenozzles because they were good, yet easily manipulated through their ambition. These are the kids that grow up to be Evil Admirals.
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Old March 13 2013, 03:03 AM   #32
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

a cadet outranks an NCO? Can anyone who was actually in the military weigh in on that?
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Old March 13 2013, 03:22 AM   #33
Sadara
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
a cadet outranks an NCO? Can anyone who was actually in the military weigh in on that?
When I was in the Army and was briefly in a commissioning program I was considered a cadet and was treated like a regular officer in many, but not all respects. My pay grade was actually that of a sergeant though.

In Starfleet's case, I think it would depend on how the Academy is geared toward producing officers versus enlisted so I can't say with any certainty either way. If O'Brien ended up on that ship, I think he'd still put Watters in his place somehow.
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Old March 13 2013, 04:03 AM   #34
WesleysDisciple
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

I have to say I like the idea of watters having to explain himself to sisko



Oh curious what if Wesley had wound up aboard the ship.


He'd have probaly managed to Strong Arm Captain Watter's Take command of the ship, Reconfigure everything to work something like 10 times as well...

Then annihilate the Battleship... Then Have a Hologram of himself Standing tall and proud errected on the spot of the battleships vaporization.


Im sure back in Medieval times their probaly WERE captains as young as Watter's back when people BOUGHT their commisions.
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Old March 13 2013, 04:10 AM   #35
tighr
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Sadara wrote: View Post
In Starfleet's case, I think it would depend on how the Academy is geared toward producing officers versus enlisted so I can't say with any certainty either way. If O'Brien ended up on that ship, I think he'd still put Watters in his place somehow.
That has a lot to do with the ambiguity of how Trek treated enlisted/NCOs. O'Brien in particular. He was alternately portrayed as wearing one pip, two pips, one hollow pip, and then some funky chevron thing for most of DS9. Dialogue referred to him as Ensign, Lt, Chief, Petty Officer, and once as simply "Conn" (although that was Encounter at Farpoint, and he was a throwaway at that point). He was also mentioned as having attended Starfleet Academy, which no enlisted would have done, and served as Tactical Officer aboard the Rutledge. He acts as the Chief Engineer on DS9, which is confusing as a Chief Engineer is usually an officer, not an actual "Chief".

But in regards to putting Watters in his place, as a seasoned CPO he would certainly slap around Watters right up until the point where Watters issued an order, in which case he'd be obliged to obey it, albeit grudgingly. Young officers are supposed to heed the advice given by CPOs.
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Old March 13 2013, 04:19 AM   #36
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

tighr wrote: View Post
He was also mentioned as having attended Starfleet Academy.
That was a mistake. It's been ignored.
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Old March 13 2013, 04:23 AM   #37
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Plus he could've attended some sort of non-officer training program that also happens to be located at the Academy.
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Old March 13 2013, 07:31 AM   #38
WesleysDisciple
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Got impressiopn that Enlisted crewmembers of starfleet do spend some time at the academy... IN the episode "the drumhead" It said that Forgot his name the guy who was 1 4th romulan had thought a time or two about Taking another 3 years of classes, but wanted to be out in the stars.
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Old March 13 2013, 12:18 PM   #39
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

It was an excellent episode for the most part. But after watching I thought that it could have been even better if Jake and Nog hadn't been involved at all - if the entire episode just began and ended with the crew of the Valiant. I mean, the only real reason they're there is to justify the episode and I think that if the producers had believed they could 'get away with it', they might have done it that way. It's a lot to cram into one episode, but a more organic dissenting tendency arising among the crew as the 'mission creep' Watters is ensuring takes place becomes more and more blatant, culminating in an attempt at mutiny and then the failed assault on the Dominion ship - that could have been bloody marvellous.

It would have removed the need for the miraculous character shield escape pod business with Jake and Nog, too. Not that I think it's a fault of the episode per se - but I think it could have been significantly better if they'd done it that way.
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Old March 13 2013, 03:20 PM   #40
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

LobsterAfternoon wrote: View Post
Plus he could've attended some sort of non-officer training program that also happens to be located at the Academy.
This would almost certainly have to be the case because even the enlisted would have to be familiarized with Starfleet ships, equipment, procedures, etc.
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Old March 13 2013, 03:26 PM   #41
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

tighr wrote: View Post
Sadara wrote: View Post
In Starfleet's case, I think it would depend on how the Academy is geared toward producing officers versus enlisted so I can't say with any certainty either way. If O'Brien ended up on that ship, I think he'd still put Watters in his place somehow.
That has a lot to do with the ambiguity of how Trek treated enlisted/NCOs. O'Brien in particular. He was alternately portrayed as wearing one pip, two pips, one hollow pip, and then some funky chevron thing for most of DS9. Dialogue referred to him as Ensign, Lt, Chief, Petty Officer, and once as simply "Conn" (although that was Encounter at Farpoint, and he was a throwaway at that point). He was also mentioned as having attended Starfleet Academy, which no enlisted would have done, and served as Tactical Officer aboard the Rutledge. He acts as the Chief Engineer on DS9, which is confusing as a Chief Engineer is usually an officer, not an actual "Chief".

But in regards to putting Watters in his place, as a seasoned CPO he would certainly slap around Watters right up until the point where Watters issued an order, in which case he'd be obliged to obey it, albeit grudgingly. Young officers are supposed to heed the advice given by CPOs.
Eh, we've seen lower ranking Starfleet Officers tell higher ranking ones to go jump in the creek before so I don't see why O'Brien would just go along with whatever Watters said either just because he's enlisted.

In The Doomsday Machine, Kirk flat kicked Commodore Decker off his bridge, Riker outed Admiral Pressman on the whole Federation cloaking device thingy, Picard took on the Admiral in Data's Day who wanted to haul Lal off the ship.

Really you just need someone who is willing to stand up for what's right and sane. Sure they risk their career, but anyone with a conscience can do it.
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Old March 14 2013, 02:08 AM   #42
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Curious anything thats not been said.

We all know that The "Captain" Is a wacko.

Any other observations.

I think that Nog got tossed the idiot ball, and holds it till the last 5 minutes, when shoves it at the dieing girl who holds it till the end of the episode.

Just watched it recently. I think you nailed it on the head. I disagree with many of the replies. Nog DID get the 'idiot ball' and dropped it in the last 30 seconds.

I do not know if I would call the captain "wacko" but he definitely lost touch. I do not know ALL of the Starfleet protocols, but I am sure he broke many.

This brings me to my quesion, would they have had time/ablity to download the intel on the vessel in the escape pods? Does this thing happen automatically? Would Starfleet allow escape pods to contain such info?

If not then the entire mission was a failure. This was a very important mission - to get intel on the most dangerous ship of their enemy.

What if no one survived? Then the intel would have definitely been lost thus making the entire mission a complete failure of epic proportions. And don't forget, they lost a valuable ship as well. It seems there are not many of those types (I only know of 2 - the valiant and the defiant)

As for Sisko, he should have pointed out that the mere question "where are you from?" would not send a real Starfleet officer on an emotional bender. This proves that she is either not ready or not qualified for such a mission. SHe should have been relieved of duty on the spot.

ALso, dropping his dads name should have put some sense into some of the cadets. Part of being a good officer (or a good person - at least according to Socrates) is knowing your limits as well as your strengths. Being a good captain involves not going on suicide missions unless there is no other choice.

As the girl at the end gave her opinion that it was 'they' who failed the captain and not the other way around, I disagreed with this until I realized that it was true in the sense that someone should have relieved him of command. This was their failure.
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Old March 14 2013, 03:54 AM   #43
Sadara
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

moriluk wrote: View Post
WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
Curious anything thats not been said.

We all know that The "Captain" Is a wacko.

Any other observations.

I think that Nog got tossed the idiot ball, and holds it till the last 5 minutes, when shoves it at the dieing girl who holds it till the end of the episode.

Just watched it recently. I think you nailed it on the head. I disagree with many of the replies. Nog DID get the 'idiot ball' and dropped it in the last 30 seconds.

I do not know if I would call the captain "wacko" but he definitely lost touch. I do not know ALL of the Starfleet protocols, but I am sure he broke many.

This brings me to my quesion, would they have had time/ablity to download the intel on the vessel in the escape pods? Does this thing happen automatically? Would Starfleet allow escape pods to contain such info?

If not then the entire mission was a failure. This was a very important mission - to get intel on the most dangerous ship of their enemy.

What if no one survived? Then the intel would have definitely been lost thus making the entire mission a complete failure of epic proportions. And don't forget, they lost a valuable ship as well. It seems there are not many of those types (I only know of 2 - the valiant and the defiant)

As for Sisko, he should have pointed out that the mere question "where are you from?" would not send a real Starfleet officer on an emotional bender. This proves that she is either not ready or not qualified for such a mission. SHe should have been relieved of duty on the spot.

ALso, dropping his dads name should have put some sense into some of the cadets. Part of being a good officer (or a good person - at least according to Socrates) is knowing your limits as well as your strengths. Being a good captain involves not going on suicide missions unless there is no other choice.

As the girl at the end gave her opinion that it was 'they' who failed the captain and not the other way around, I disagreed with this until I realized that it was true in the sense that someone should have relieved him of command. This was their failure.
Dropping Sisko's name did nothing but make those cadets want to prove themselves more. Jake wanted to make them see reason, but it backfired spectacularly. Part of the reason for this is Jake was speaking to a bunch of kids who have had praise and sunshine blown up their asses for the better part of close to four years. He wasn't talking to rational people with a decent amount of objectivity and life experience.

As for Dorian being relieved on the spot for her emotional reaction to talking about home... I would say that is a bit harsh. I agree with your point about her possibly being too young for such a mission, but she is also on a ship commanded by essentially, a tyrant, albeit one who doesn't realize he's being one. Watters didn't have the leadership skills or experience to deal with an essential aspect of command and believe it or not, that is people skills.

Dorian's homesickness was normal. Bottling it up was not. And Watters handled the whole thing poorly.
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Old March 14 2013, 06:14 PM   #44
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

This brings me to my quesion, would they have had time/ability to download the intel on the vessel in the escape pods? Does this thing happen automatically? Would Starfleet allow escape pods to contain such info?
Once or twice, we saw Kirk specifically order up-to-date records to be loaded to a buoy or courier pod to be jettisoned as the ship prepared to meet an invincible enemy. Also, Kirk often had great trouble contacting his superiors over subspace, what with time delays and possibly being out of range altogether. So back in those days, all the data the ship had gathered would most probably have been lost in an incident like this.

On the other hand, we never really saw comparable scenes in the TNG era. And we never got good examples of data uploading speeds; for all we know, a Records Officer (brevet) heading for the pods could have remembered at the last second to perform his or her duty, punch an isolinear chip into a dataslot, press one of those mysterious LCARS buttons that launches a complex operation with single keypress, pull the chip out one second later, and thus carry all the crucial mission logs in his or her pocket.

The scenario where copies of the logs would automatically go into all the pods just before pod jettison is somewhat less likely, I guess. For the tactical reasons you already mentioned if not for anything else.

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Old March 14 2013, 06:45 PM   #45
tighr
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Starships could also have what is the modern day equivalent of a "black box" flight recorder, encased in unobtanium or something like that. Just because we've never seen one in canon doesn't mean they don't exist.

There's only be a few instances I can think of where starships have encountered the wreckage of other starships, and they've never tried searching for one, but that doesn't mean we couldn't see one in the future.
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