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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old March 10 2013, 03:36 PM   #16
WesleysDisciple
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Heard on Memory alpha that an earlier draft, had Kira along for the ride, instead of nog, but Their was no way the authors could see Kira NOT laughing off, the "Field commisions" and taking command, or winding up stunned then thrown in the brig.

A lot think that "Captain Watter's" Was just not eager to return to being a Cadet.

Note in the Final bit on DS9

It shows Nog Having been promoted to lieutnenant junior grade.

NOT "Your Field commision is hereby terminated, for what its worth you fufilled your dutys exemplary, its time to report back to the academy to finish your classes.

Maybe he can cover 2 or 3 advanced senior classes with the bajoran mlitary academy.

Last edited by WesleysDisciple; March 10 2013 at 04:44 PM.
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Old March 10 2013, 04:53 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Watters was technically a Captain, given the battlefield commission by his predecessor.
Or at least that's what he himself claims. Apparently, nobody else really heard the dying words of the original skipper...

That was a nice touch of ambiguity there. Perhaps Watters did get the skipper's blessing for at least part of what he was doing. Perhaps the Captain's dying words were more on the lines of "Take your knee off my windpipe, you murderous bastaaaaa..." and Watters would have been his last choice for command. Perhaps there were no words. The episode works regardless of the facts.

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Old March 10 2013, 05:19 PM   #18
Sadara
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
HEre what really vexed me on the Crew.

they COMPLETED the assigned mission... they could have gone home, and been safe and been thanked for bringing the intel, instead they decided, to go for Glory and power...

Even the VULCANS seemed smug.
That bothered me too. Watters should have done the sensible thing and ordered the ship home. Perhaps if Red Squad hadn't had so much sunshine and praise blown up their ass for so long, they would have realized they didn't have the experience and possibly firepower necessary to finish off a Dominion warship.

That tragedy is partly Starfleet's fault for conditioning them to be snobbish, egotistical, self important fuckknuckles.

As for the Vulcans, you'd have thought logic would have told them their captain was a couple sandwiches short of a picnic, but that didn't happen either.
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Old March 10 2013, 08:19 PM   #19
CrazyMatt
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
A lot think that "Captain Watter's" Was just not eager to return to being a Cadet.
True, can you imagine the conversation in the admiral's office on starbase (whatever) upon the Valiant's return from Dominion-held space...

Admiral: Considering your circumstances, you did quite well, Watters.

Watters: Thank you sir. After our repairs I'll be able to take the Valiant out for our next mission. Can you spare me some more crew members? We're really shorthanded right now.

Admiral: What? What are you talking about cadet?

Watters: Sir, I'm Captain Watters. Captain Ramirez gave me a battlefield commission.

Admiral: Captain my ass... get those pips off this minute, cadet. And don't you go near the Valiant unless it's to collect your belongings. Expect to be on the next shuttle back to Earth and the Academy!
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Old March 10 2013, 08:57 PM   #20
SJSharksfan39
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

I haven't seen this episode in a long time as I get angry after I saw it before since I think it's one of the worst episodes of the series. However, something that pisses me off even more about this one are the events in two of my favorite episodes, Homefront/Paradise Lost, and I have a simple question that brings these three episodes together.

What the hell was red squad still doing in service. I mean during the changling at home threat (Which never got resolved by the way) and the attempted Coup, Red Squad was an accessory to those events. I forgot if murder was involved, but I know treason was. So considering that yes at the time of the 4th season everyone knew that War was inevitable, why risk even having this "cadet group" still in service. Why wasn't it disbanded. Hell, if we bring in First Duty into this discussion, it seems like Starfleet Academy can't keep it's elite cadets in check and they have some serious internal issues. Isn't that a risk in itself to the war effort? I'm not saying disbanding Starfleet Academy, but why was Red Squad allowed to continue?

Anyway, Valiant and Profit and Lace are the two worst back to back group of episodes in the series, but I probably should watch them again (And I'm doing a rewatch where I'm not skipping episodes) to see if they still hold up to being bad.
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Old March 10 2013, 09:07 PM   #21
WesleysDisciple
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

You would think Starfleet BEST OF THE BEST, Cadets, would have epople with enough individual drive, to know that THEIR ARE circumstances, where mutiny IS acceptable?


Oh curious

someone mentioned First Duty.

What would likely have happened, in First Duty, had Nova Squad SUCCEEDED in performing the Kolvart Starburst.

Is their a reason why I think They'd have been given some technical discipline for violating an academy Edict, and too many guests would be thrilled, for Starfleet to punish them en masse?
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Old March 10 2013, 09:15 PM   #22
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

I mostly enjoy this episode. I just think the soundtrack brings it down, specially during the ending. It's supposed to be menacing moment and instead we get cheery music...
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Old March 10 2013, 09:46 PM   #23
SJSharksfan39
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

WesleysDisciple wrote: View Post
You would think Starfleet BEST OF THE BEST, Cadets, would have epople with enough individual drive, to know that THEIR ARE circumstances, where mutiny IS acceptable?


Oh curious

someone mentioned First Duty.

What would likely have happened, in First Duty, had Nova Squad SUCCEEDED in performing the Kolvart Starburst.

Is their a reason why I think They'd have been given some technical discipline for violating an academy Edict, and too many guests would be thrilled, for Starfleet to punish them en masse?
I think they would have gotten a repremand but that was it. If I remember correctly, wasn't Locarno expelled and the rest held back a year?
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Old March 11 2013, 12:25 AM   #24
Marcus Porcius Cato
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
I haven't seen this episode in a long time as I get angry after I saw it before since I think it's one of the worst episodes of the series. However, something that pisses me off even more about this one are the events in two of my favorite episodes, Homefront/Paradise Lost, and I have a simple question that brings these three episodes together.

What the hell was red squad still doing in service. I mean during the changling at home threat (Which never got resolved by the way) and the attempted Coup, Red Squad was an accessory to those events. I forgot if murder was involved, but I know treason was. So considering that yes at the time of the 4th season everyone knew that War was inevitable, why risk even having this "cadet group" still in service. Why wasn't it disbanded. Hell, if we bring in First Duty into this discussion, it seems like Starfleet Academy can't keep it's elite cadets in check and they have some serious internal issues. Isn't that a risk in itself to the war effort? I'm not saying disbanding Starfleet Academy, but why was Red Squad allowed to continue?

Anyway, Valiant and Profit and Lace are the two worst back to back group of episodes in the series, but I probably should watch them again (And I'm doing a rewatch where I'm not skipping episodes) to see if they still hold up to being bad.
I suspect that even with Layton in jail, there must have been other officers who were in on his attempted coup. Red Squad might have been saved for future and the cruse on Valiant might have been a good way to get the squad out of praying eyes of internal investigation.

Looking back I think Jake being there might have been oil in fire, I doubt members of Red Squad would have looked at the son of Ben Sisko, a man who brought their achievement to the ground, in favorable a light.
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Old March 11 2013, 02:23 AM   #25
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

My main issue with the episode:

Why did Nog still look up to these guys? I can see why he would look up to them in the Academy: they were the best of the best, real hero-types, and popular to boot - everything he wanted to be. But he surpassed them. He was an actual officer. He was good enough to get a real commission, even considering the circumstances. They were just out for a stroll (probably their pre-graduation shakedown cruise), and happened to get into some bad luck. I'm quite sure that, had they survived, they would have all gotten medals, and probably a commission (if that wasn't the plan anyways), but that hadn't happened yet when Nog met them. He still had that hero-worship thing going, pretty much the whole time. That was just weird, especially as Nog doesn't seem to respect those below him that much (like a true Ferengi).
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Old March 11 2013, 02:36 AM   #26
WesleysDisciple
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Curious I think Watters was hoping to get a speedy promotion by wowing Starfleet command, with his amazing accomplishment.


Jake, I think he was right... NO ONE ELSE was mentioning that htis plan was INSANE

so he had to.
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Old March 11 2013, 03:14 AM   #27
Sadara
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

I think it would have been more interesting for the crew to have survived and had to deal with Captain Sisko. If he intimidates Worf, imagine Watters having to deal with him.
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Old March 12 2013, 02:00 AM   #28
James T. Vader
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

Ugh, Trek babies. If the Federation actually drills its cadets into doing such massively misguided, downright stupid things, congratulations - you've built yourselves a military education system that any totalitarian regime could be proud of.

They were a bad crew who followed a bad captain and I still giggle when they die and I snortle when the Jem’Hadar start firing on the escape pods
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Old March 12 2013, 02:16 AM   #29
Sadara
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

James T. Vader wrote: View Post
Ugh, Trek babies. If the Federation actually drills its cadets into doing such massively misguided, downright stupid things, congratulations - you've built yourselves a military education system that any totalitarian regime could be proud of.

They were a bad crew who followed a bad captain and I still giggle when they die and I snortle when the Jem’Hadar start firing on the escape pods
This. I still would have been amused watching Sisko rip them a new asshole though.
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Old March 12 2013, 02:28 AM   #30
tighr
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Re: Thoughts on "Valiant"?

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
Watters: Sir, I'm Captain Watters. Captain Ramirez gave me a battlefield commission.

Admiral: Captain my ass... get those pips off this minute, cadet. And don't you go near the Valiant unless it's to collect your belongings. Expect to be on the next shuttle back to Earth and the Academy!
And yet, this episode gives us the precedent that allowed Trek'09 to happen. After saving the day, Kirk should have been granted a commission as a Lt jg, and told to report to the Lexington. Effectively only skipping the Ensign rank, and only because he saved Earth.

As far as Valiant, I always thought it was jacked up that Collins accepts a brevet as a Chief Petty Officer... something that as a cadet she'd already outrank. Even Nog is confused when trying to figure out what rank she holds.
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